Long Range Shooting

[Buck Snort]

Guys, I'd like to get some opinions from you on a matter that I've been thinking about and reading what I can find. All this business of how one can shot out to 200 yards with these new rifles, loaded with 150 grains plus, loads. My last artical I read, was talking about how the old traditional guns could shoot just as accurately with loads far less than what they are stuffing in these inlines. Point number one that I'd like to clarify is, somewhere I read that the muzzleloader will only burn up so much powder, something like 80 grains and the rest gets blowed out behind the bullet. Looking at the old loads in front loaders and cartridges, the magnums of the time only maxed at 110 grains of BP. Most accurate loads were 70 to 90 grains and they shot, well further than I would have ever guessed. The second point I wonder about is bullets and barrel twists. To shoot 200 yards and have energy to make a kill on a deer, the old guns never had sabots and copper clad jackets. They had some weight to them and some were paper wrapped but what was the winning ticket to shoot a conical bullet, out of the old girls, with the twists being much slower than what these inlines are shooting and they shot accurately and with punch, out there? Did the longer barrels give the bullets more time to stablelize before leaving the barrel?
I've been shooting smoke poles since I was in my 20's (some time ago) and have never thought to much about the particulars, about them. Till as of late. I am intreeged about the traditional shooters and, if guys would take the time to understand it, how these old style girls, can run longside the newbees on the block and compared to the inlines, have beauty and grace about them. The slinder lines and color in the wood, fitted to the mechanical workings of metal, they are works of art. Shooting these girls out to, beyond 100 yards, was done, is being done and it's no new thing. Share your experiences with this, if you will. I look forward to hearing comments on the subject and learning from you guys that are far more educated about this.

 

[pchwcf50110]

you have touched on a topic i really enjoy. i have a few English target style rifles all .451" caliber. i do what is refered to as mid range shooting (300-600 yards) and 100-200 yard (what i call outer limit hunting distance practice)shooting with them. my Whitworth rifle can shoot a 475gr. bullet at 1450 fps muzzle velocity with 90gr. of swiss 1 1/2Fg. my PH Volunteer at 130gr. powder charge and can hit 1600 fps with excellent accuracy but i normally shoot it at 90gr. these are fairly heavy rifles so the recoil isn't bad. i realize inlines often shoot 2000fps and some get a little over that and some a little under but their bullet weight is 250gr. or 200gr. These smaller bullets bleed off speed and energy at a faster rate and allow the big slug to catch up and surpass the sabot bullet at 200 yards energy wise. the sabot bullet is somewhere around 1300 fps at 200 yards and the .451" 475gr. slug is around 1100 fps. if you knew the trajectory of the rifle and the distance the target the same distance shots could be made with a traditional rifle as an inline. i personally don't like long shots at living targets with ML's. all muzzleloaders have to follow the same laws of physics but inline manufacter's marketing departments make stupid claims about muzzle energy equal to a 7mm Mag and super long range game taking which are nonsence.

 

[Jason Lewis]

the pitch on long range target rifles is much faster than anything in the inline market. gibbs rifles are 1-18" , the whitworths can be anywhere from 1-18" to 1-21" (my euroarms whitworth is 1-18") and the alex henry rifled volunteers are 1-22".

i practice every week at 600yrds and also shoot long range a couple of times a year in matches. my load is a 530grn PP .445 patched to .452 bullet over 1 3/8" hex felt wad and 80gr swiss 1 1/2F and 10 of swiss 3F. MV is 1280 fps with a SD of about 12fps. on a good day i can hold a 1 MOA group barring wierd wind. on an average day i can hold a 2 MOA group pretty regular.

i also host a midrange BP match in july, i'll be posting that info next month.

yes, the inline advertisers promote 2000fps, but in reality they don't come close, last summer i chronographed a friends the fastest load was around 1400. they are capable of good accuracy at 200yrds but 99% of the shooters cant and don't understand the trajectory of their load to ever make a good shot on a deer sized target at that range. look at youtube, you'll find clowns missing the target all the time at that range with inlines.

 

[Anonym]

You're correct. Most modern inlines have too short of a barrel to effectively burn 150 grain of powder. I have an Encore, and putting anything more than 90 grains in that is a waste. Her sweet spot was 75-80 grains. Dialed in off of a bench with a scope, I was shooting sub-MOA with a 260 grain saboted lead bullet at 200 yards.

That being said, a PRB out of a traditional rifle is just as accurate at what I consider a good hunting range to ethically take whitetail, so the Encore gets more safe time and my Renegade sees the woods more often here lately. It's just as effective, a lot more fun, and definitely more classy!

As long as you have the twist rate to stabilize a conical, I can't say there are any "effective range" advantages going with an inline. Most people buy them because of the advertising hype, ease of getting into the sport, and perceived cleaning and reliability advantages. Plus, you can pick up a "decent" inline for far less than what you'd pay for a "decent" traditional rifle. It's just that traditional rifles show much more craftsmanship than the cookie-cutter inlines available.

Anonym

 

[pchwcf50110]

Plus, you can pick up a "decent" inline for far less than what you'd pay for a "decent" traditional rifle. It's just that traditional rifles show much more craftsmanship than the cookie-cutter inlines available.

Anonym

that's for sure about the price point. a quality traditional rifle is going to run at minimum 2X as much as an inline. Encores are around $500-600 and a pile of parts for a traditional rifle cost at least that much and the rifle isn't even built.

 

[David W.]

Part of that "cheap" cost found in the in-lines is the cheap plastic stocks they are on. One I looked at even had a plastic front sight. Now i ask, will that rifle last long enough to pass down to your son? And what about when the models change, can you still find parts? Besides that, buying the rifle may be cheap, but those pellets and sabots will drain your wallet quickly!

 

[David W.]

On top of what I said in my previous post, I like a rifle that is pleasing to look at. I have yet to see a pleasing looking in-line. Most look like the piece of garbage they are.

 

[Buck Snort]

Hey Guys, I'm hearing some good information here. I wondered what the Whitworths and Gibbs rifles had for twists. Like the ol 45-70 Gov, shooting a big ol log of lead down range and hitting a target accurately, with not near the powder these inline say are the key to 200 yard shots, that's doing it. And doing it with a gun that has, in my eyes, class and looks. You are right with the comment that the in-lines have no looks. They look to me like a cheap ol break open sigle shot shotgun, cobbed together to make a muzzleloader. I'm still a diehard when it comes to wood. I've made several wood stocks for guns I have owned and to me, getting a chunk of Black Walnut from a saw mill and shaping it into a piece of beauty, showing off the grain with a rich finish. That is a good looking gun.
You look at photos,showing the business end of a muzzleloader, when she's touched off. You see alot of burning powder going out the front. The piece I read and that was touched on in a reply, here, about only so much powder is used and the rest is waste, has had me thinking about, just what are these guys that profess that those big loads give you magnum push from these inlines. I would think that in a barrel on a traditional rifle, that has some length to it, there may be more powder burned in a heavy load. But like was said with the Encore, loaded to the hilt, it's wasted and not used for any added benifit.
I like digging into this stuff and hearing your comments. It's goof food for thought.

 

[paulab]

Hi Buck....The big bullet rifles like the Gibbs have fast twist rates in the order of 1:18 to 1:22 to stabilize those 500+ grain hunks of lead cheers Paul

 

[pchwcf50110]

both my Whitworths (one is a 1st gen. Parker Hale, the second a Euro arms) and my PH Volunteer are 1-20". my Navy arms Rigby Creedmoore and my homemade Rigby is 1-18". most people use 70-90gr. of powder with some using 100gr. for 1000 yard shooting.

 

[Buck Snort]

So Fellers, when a guy decides to do a build and I mean bits at a time (as budget allows), where does one find a fast twist barrel, that will shoot these pumkins of lead? Green Mountain is on standby as far as us citizens go. I supose one could look at Sharps type barrels and modify. I've got some molds for the 45-70 I used to have. Heavy bullet molds. I sold the 45-70 cause in Southern MN we can't use rifles. Just shotguns (which does not turn my crank) and muzzleloaders. I'm thinking, cause I love to do gun builds, build a traditional rifle, that shoots the big chunks, and start doing some shooting, out there a ways. Come deer season, I could reach out and touch those rabbits that are out of shotgun range. It would all come together with a piece of art I created.

 

[Anonym]

There has been a raw, fast twist 45 on GunBroker lately for $100. Not sure if it's still on there, but I think it might have been a 1:20. What caliber are you looking for?

 

[Jason Lewis]

So Fellers, when a guy decides to do a build and I mean bits at a time (as budget allows), where does one find a fast twist barrel, that will shoot these pumkins of lead? Green Mountain is on standby as far as us citizens go. I supose one could look at Sharps type barrels and modify. I've got some molds for the 45-70 I used to have. Heavy bullet molds. I sold the 45-70 cause in Southern MN we can't use rifles. Just shotguns (which does not turn my crank) and muzzleloaders. I'm thinking, cause I love to do gun builds, build a traditional rifle, that shoots the big chunks, and start doing some shooting, out there a ways. Come deer season, I could reach out and touch those rabbits that are out of shotgun range. It would all come together with a piece of art I created.

the barrel isn't the problem, the breech is, you cannot use a normal breech plug, there is a LARGE amount of pressure in LRML guns, they have and were designed with special breech plugs just for the purpose. there isn't anyone who makes them anymore. the late don brown did and to my knowledge none of his breech plugs are left. piecing a LRML together isn't really a possiblity any more. pecatonica used to sell a rigby kit, i don't know if they do any more. but that kit is very difficult to assemble with the precision required. your best bet is to consider the pedersoli gibbs or the euroarms whitworth then take it from there, also, you will want a bullet somewhere in the 500 grn class as a minimum for long range work.

 

[paulab]

Buck....Try track of the wolf, pecatonica and the log cabin shop for fast twist Rigby kits. Buffalo Arms also carries fast twist barrels for ctg. guns. All you would have to do is fit it up with the CORRECT high pressure breech. The build is more difficult than a regular m/l kit but with patience and modest ability with the usual "man tools", you should do OK. And yes, there is nothing like reaching waaaaay out there and hitting your target! As you can see, some of us have already been bitten by the L.R. bug! Go for it.....life is short. cheers Paul

 

[pchwcf50110]

Badger, Krieger, or Douglas can supply barrels from the BPCR lines. Medic302 talks about breeching and is correct about it being the weak link. i machine mine from 4140 chrome moly. Dennis McCandis or McCandles (can't remember) from MC custom machine does breeching and will make and fit his own breechplug. i have seen his work and it is excellent. he can make patent breeches, alex henry style, Manton etc. do a search for MC machine and breeching.

 

[Jason Lewis]

I think badger is out of business now.

 

[nkbj]

There was a gentleman in New Mexico that made breech plugs to order. I have lost his contact information. Anyone know him?

 

[rafterob]

If you are interested in how accurate-long range shooting was done back in the day try to find the book "The Percussion Cap Lock Rifle" by Ned Roberts. It seems that most libraries either have a copy or can get one transferred in.Very informative read addressing the apex of caplock rifle design.

 

[pchwcf50110]

There was a gentleman in New Mexico that made breech plugs to order. I have lost his contact information. Anyone know him?

that's the man i am refering to. Dennis McCandless of mc custom machine, Las Cruces NM. www.cap-n-ball.com/McM/

 

[poordevil]

A coupla days ago on the History Chnl. , a show about Lincolin, told of Lincolin standing with troops about 800yrds away from Confeds. and a solder got shot standing next to him.

The show went on to have a fellow with a Whitworth shoot at a man target at 800 yrds, and hit it!

P