Long Range Shooting

[ozark57]

General Sedgwick ( think I spelled that right) was the highest ranking general killed in the war. He was taken by a Whitworth bullet.His famous last words were "They could not hit an elephant at this distance" You can read the official account on line.
Yankee's kept hereing a wizzing sound before someone was hit ( the hexaganal Whitworth bullet in flight) and then would hear the report of the rifle.
I bought a Parker-Hale Whitworth a few months ago and I plan to test it's accuracy out to 1000 yards soon.

 

[paulab]

Ozark....make sure to post your results at 1000 yds. I'm sure the rest of long range people besides me would be interested. cheers Paul

 

[Dphar]

You're correct. Most modern inlines have too short of a barrel to effectively burn 150 grain of powder. I have an Encore, and putting anything more than 90 grains in that is a waste. Her sweet spot was 75-80 grains. Dialed in off of a bench with a scope, I was shooting sub-MOA with a 260 grain saboted lead bullet at 200 yards.

That being said, a PRB out of a traditional rifle is just as accurate at what I consider a good hunting range to ethically take whitetail, so the Encore gets more safe time and my Renegade sees the woods more often here lately. It's just as effective, a lot more fun, and definitely more classy!

As long as you have the twist rate to stabilize a conical, I can't say there are any "effective range" advantages going with an inline. Most people buy them because of the advertising hype, ease of getting into the sport, and perceived cleaning and reliability advantages. Plus, you can pick up a "decent" inline for far less than what you'd pay for a "decent" traditional rifle. It's just that traditional rifles show much more craftsmanship than the cookie-cutter inlines available.

Anonym

Folks must understand that with a BULLET the mount of powder that will burn goes up. Most will burn far more than many think anyway.
You must also remember that Pyrodex and 777 which most inline shooters use are not anything like BP chemically and do not perform the same way in the gun.
But what will shoot accurately is a different matter entirely.
The 450 BPE using bullets in then 270-360 grains would burn 120 gr of coarse blackpowder (C&H #6 is about like F) in barrels +- 30". There is little difference in a cartridge gun and a sealed breech ML with a primer in this regard.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

General Sedgwick ( think I spelled that right) was the highest ranking general killed in the war. He was taken by a Whitworth bullet.His famous last words were "They could not hit an elephant at this distance" You can read the official account on line.
Yankee's kept hereing a wizzing sound before someone was hit ( the hexaganal Whitworth bullet in flight) and then would hear the report of the rifle.
I bought a Parker-Hale Whitworth a few months ago and I plan to test it's accuracy out to 1000 yards soon.

He was a brave officer but was perhaps not as wise as the EMs you were ducking and hiding. This is often the case.
At 1000 yards its doubtful they heard to shot after the bullet arrived. The bullets from most rifles of this sort will fall subsonic by 150 yards more or less. So the muzzle blast catches up by 1000 where they are very much under the speed of sound. Thus they could here them coming. Supersonic even just under supersonic you don't hear coming or if you do its not for long enough to react to it. I suspect the weird sound of the incoming projectiles was because of their being at an angle to the path of flight (the bullet tends to stay at its angle of departure due to its rotation). Many of the Whitworth's used by the south were equiped with telescopic sights and most were destroyed by the Union Army out of hate and fear or so I have read.

You may know this but...
If you intend to shoot to this distance much you will need a supply of steel nipples, a good hard stainless one or two or a platinum lined nipple. With heavy bullets steel nipples do not last all that long and an eroded nipple will blow the accuracy. Plan on 100-120 grains of powder, 100 was thought to be the minimum for 1000 yards shooting. I think the Irish Rigby MLs used 120 or so.I would not use "magnum" caps either.
I have only made one bulleted ML and it was an underhammer. Shot pretty good for the time and experience of its users but was finicky and ate nipples at an alarming rate even with 70 grains of powder and a 520 gr 45 caliber bullet.

Be very careful with the loading, I would make a drop tube for the rifle and use it. About 3" shorter than the bore length with the funnel at the muzzle. Pour the powder slowly and eat the bullet and wads if used with great precision. ANY singificant variation in velocity will cause serious vertical stringing on the target, several feet even at 300 yards.
If you do not wipe every shot you will need a lubed wad over the powder in my experience.

Dan

 

[Buck Snort]

WOW You guys have touched on something I didn't even think about. Breech Plugs and nipples. As I ponder this information you are sharing, it comes to light that bigger slugs, faster twists, mean added resistance and back preasure on whats holing things together. I never gave breech plugs much thought. I thought it was more or less a short bolt threaded into the back of the barrel. And the nipple, I didn't know they wore out. There are many things one can always learn about these old girls. So at what point does the rear end of these rifles start taking a beating? Less than 1 in 48" and more than a 200 grain bullet? This is very interesting. I wish I had you guys at a "get to gether", this opens a whole world of knowledge. Do any books go through this stuff?

 

[ResearchPress]

Plan on 100-120 grains of powder, 100 was thought to be the minimum for 1000 yards shooting. I think the Irish Rigby MLs used 120 or so.

You've over done the charges somewhat. 85-100 grains are commonly used today in long range shooting.

19th century shooters used conservative charges. Metford recommended 90 grains although accepted that up to 100 grains may be used provided the shooter could accept the recoil. Young (writing in 1878) talked of charges from 75-100 grains and remarked "it is worth noticing that the finest results are generally obtained with charges of 90 grains or thereabouts." Rigby's charge was 90 grains.

At the 1863 trials for the rifle to be used by the finalists in the NRA(GB)'s Queen's Prize, the following rifles competed and are listed with the charges used at 1000 yards:

Bissell, Parsons, Whitworth: 85 grains
Baker, Turner: 80 grains


David

 

[nkbj]

Does anyone have info handy concerning charges for the 40 cals? I prefer to use lighter weight bullets with a modified 41 mould but would be interested in any data that might be public.

 

[ozark57]

I wipe after every shot, the Whitworth rifling demands it. Also keep a seperate rod to wipe out the patent breach. I have a dozen nipples on hand. I can shoot to 1000 yards on my range, but have have not shot the Whitworth that far yet. Recoil is fairly hard with 100+ grains of fffg. We have had bad weather until recently. I need more time with load combos and the chronograph to make sure I get the best I can from the rifle.

 

[Dphar]

fffg can excessively deform long bullets and it really jacks up the pressure on the nipple. I would try FF, 1.5 F Swiss and Fg as well. The original LR guns all shot coarser powders. I have had good results with 1.5 f in he 45-100 but suspect it will shoot as well or better with F.
Many shooters used FG even in 32-40 short range rifles.
Bullet nose deformation was why the heavy streamlined factory LR bullets used in the cartridge rifles were made of alloys as hard as 1:14.

Dan

 

[nkbj]

Does anyone have info handy concerning charges for the 40 cals? I prefer to use lighter weight bullets with a modified 41 mould but would be interested in any data that might be public.

Concerning the thoughts on this post, shooting further with traditional style rifles, about two years ago I decided to experiment with that idea and looked around for an off the shelf rifle to work with. After settling on the GPR for various reasons, I bided my time until a southpaw came up for sale and had a drop-in barrel made.
It's not a modern style rifle, it's not an inline, it's not using anything remotely resembling modern technology. Work interferred with everything this year and I can't wait 'til next deer season. Meanwhile, maybe hogs.
If I did things right this oughta go to photobucket... http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy192/SNARGLEFLERK/40GPR_310GRFP_70FFg.jpg

 

[paulvallandigham]

The .45-70 casing necked down to .40 caliber yields the .40-65 cartridge. You are trying to shoot 5 more grains of powder in your MLER????

Seems to me this is a bit foolish. your guns, and most particularly the nipple is NOT designed to control those kinds of chamber pressures! I hope you have a half dozen nipples in your kit when you shoot this gun.

I have seen 70 grains of FFFg used in a .40 when shooting the much lighter PRB, but I believe you are asking too much of your nipple, and gun to be using it with that heavy bullet. Please, consider reducing that load back to no more than 60 grains, or consider switching to FFg. powder.

 

[nkbj]

Sir,
I am using FFg as noted on the photo.

The loading data published by Lyman for the 50 caliber Great Plains is 100 grains of FFg with a 420 grain bullet.

While 70 grains of FFg with this bullet is my maximum load, I do not believe I am pushing it too hard.

For off hand practice in the backyard I use the old Lymans/Ideal mould 41 Mag hollow based wadcutter; it's a "soup can" minie with a low pressure skirt.

Got the rifle for $275. The drop-in barrel with the bullet swage die were $200. I'm happy.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Fine.

As a general rule, don't put published loading data ahead of Common Sense.

I can show you all kinds of loading manuals from Lyman and others that have incorrect and dangerous loads in them, over the past 50 years. One of the fun things to do with any NEW loading book is to compare the data published in it, to what was published by the same company 10 years before.

Because of these little "discoveries", and conversations I have had with friends, I don't begin using a new load in any caliber, or gun, with any new powder, unless I find similar loading information in several different manuals. Even then, I begin at least 10 % below the LOWEST suggested powder charge, and work up from there.

I was just trying to caution you for your own safety. If the small cost of those barrels makes you feel you can afford to be more daring, Have at it. I did a lot of stupid things with guns when I was young, and didn't know better, too. :thumbsup: