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"Longhunter Muzzleloading Big Game record Book"

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roundball

Cannon
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Well, it's official...the current issue of NMLRA's Muzzle Blast magazine has an entire article devoted to: "The Longhunter Muzzleloading Big Game record Book"

And the NMLRA sings the praises of Jim Shockey loud & clear:

"Jim Shockey's commitment to trophy hunting has allowed him to become the first hunter to complete the 'Ultimate Slam' of taking all 32 species of North American big game with a muzzleloader".
 
"Jim Shockey's commitment to trophy hunting has allowed him to become the first hunter to complete the 'Ultimate Slam' of taking all 32 species of North American big game with a muzzleloader".

Trophy hunting. Great competing with other humans, not the game, to see who has the biggest . . . horns. I'd be more impressed if Jim shot a traditional muzzleloader and roundballs. Not that he hasn't had to hunt to get his animals or hasn't gotten close before shooting, but I don't like the message he sends. He "trophy" hunts the biggest specimens he can. He uses a modern gun with modern projectiles, leaving the impression that the traditional don't work well. I remember when I read about him killing big grizzly, (Kodiak?) with a saboted pistol bullet years ago. I thought he was f****ing nuts to use a deer round to kill a dangerous animal that big. I still think he ain't quite right. :imo: :m2c:
 
I was pretty impressed when I heard the name of the outfit and was thinking of entering a nice blacktail buck that scored over 120 a few years back untill I found out what the deal was all about, I chose not to have my deer in the same book with those taken by ..........other methods.
 
I just don't understand it...I'm not a 'purist' but even I'm bothered by the apparent lack of controls or adherence to standards or something...even the name "LongHunters" makes it completely obvious the intent and purpose of the record book...what is the NMLRA thinking.

It's like establishing a record book for "longbows" and then allowing crossbows to compete on equal footing...or to set up a record book for WWI bi-plane accomplishments and then allowing F15's to participate on equal footing...it's totally misleading and inappropriate...

And worse is the lack of any apparent leadership in the modern muzzleloading community to start a movement, to set up professional associations, chapters, record books, etc, for that unique technology on it's own merits...instead they just piggyback onto all the hard work done for decades by the traditional founders of all the existing muzzleloading associations and entities...if the NMLRA as a national organization can't or won't arbitrate it, I don't know of another one that can or will...a sad day in the annals of muzzleloading
 
I agree Roundball. For some reason the idea that if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, but doesn't even look like a duck, it still must be a duck,just doesn't seem to apply to me. I guess what ever loop hole you can use to get your name in the book is ok with the record keepers who make these rules.
 
You're right!!! Longhunter my foot - Daniel Boone wouldn't recognize a modern inline any more than Hiawatha would a wheel and pulley compound bow contraption :imo:
 
Squire,
I been waiting for years for someone to say this about these supposed longhunters!! I bet the only thing long is their credit card bill! These "rich boys" can trot around the world harvesting big game. Heck I had to work!
IMO there are few who could emulate the real longhunters! You don't learn that stuff reading Buckskinner and Muzzle Blasts! One can't rediscover the skills necessary to live years in the KY Tenn wilderness.
God bless him for using a ML! Also for hunting! I admire his guts, too hunting big stuff with a pistol!! But, when it comes to taking the name Longhunter I take issue! Don't get me wrong I KNEW men who could live in the woods but they are all gone now. Probably some of these Rocky Mtn boys and some Canadians/Alaskans who still live in the woods could honor the title! But bet they don't have many trophies. You can't eat horn or antler!
 
I was going to join the NMLRA but NOT now!
Shockey could not have done all that with out the funds of big business behind him.
The NMLRA is sucking up to the BIG BUCK BOYS for financial support. IT's ALL :bull: :bull: :bull:
 
I got nothing against inlines or Jim Shockey but when I read that he was put in the long hunters record book the first thing that hit my mind was, :: He shoots a Knight Rifle not a traditional. I was always under the impression that to get into that record book it had to be down with a flintlock.

As one other poster already said, it sure would be nice to have corporate sponsors fly me all over the world to shoot big game animals. Unfortunately, that just ain't gonna happen... :boohoo:

Now in Shockeys defence, he did at least use a muzzleloader. For that I give him credit. And I hear and have read, he is a heck of a bear guide in his part of the world.

I guess it all boils down to corporate money and advertizing dollars. Who will promote what and spend how much money in your magazine.

I sure would be something if he had done all of this with say a Brown Bess....
 
I've held back, but . . .

I'm neutral on the whole record-book concept. It's all fine for them as care.

I think deer, bass, etc. should be ranked by size of catch divided by weight of equipment, or even funds invested in hunt (including guide fees, ATV, treestand, etc., etc.). As noted above, money can't buy love or happiness, but it can put you smack in front of the biggest critters or allow you the time to wait one out.

Which is not saying that who's-his-face didn't work hard and show great skill in racking up that accomplishment. But let's see him find the big deer on my back hill from a cold start on a two-day weekend hunt.
 
My dad has a couple of moose in the book but they were entered when the book first came out and he didn't know they were allowing inlines. He won't enter anything else. With regards to Shockey, I think he is just cheating himself by useing a scoped inline and then taking credit for "useing a ML". Too bad to because he likely could have accomplished the same or similar feat with a flint. IMO, there's nothing wrong with useing an inline but it bothers me when someone that does then wants credit for using a ML as if it's the same as an iron sighted flint with RB. In regards to trophy hunting, I have to disagree with the post that sort of looked down on trophy hunting. In another thread, someone wrote of a crippled deer that they were feeding and that they haven't seen for awhile and was afraid some city dude may have shot it. Well guess what, if it was shot it was shot buy a meat hunter and in reality should have been. Meat hunters often road hunt because all they are interested in is filling the freezer. They will often shoot the first legal thing that comes along. A responsible meat hunter IMHO should take out a cripple rather than leave it to suffer or be killed by dogs. Trophy hunters are selective and offten will pass up many legal animals just to end up skunked at the end of the year. In order to be successful they have to know what they're doing. Don't missunderstand, I'm not dissing meat hunters, just defending ethical trophy hunters. Now trophy hunters are NOT people that shoot a big buck, knock the head off and leave the rest. That's poaching. Trophy hunters still eat the meat, it's just not the primary reason for hunting. For most, the challenge of selective hunting is more impotant than just killing something.

Cody
 
Mmmmmmmm I think I have set through enough of this toung and cheek; this however is the final straw.
===========================================================
Now in Shockeys defence, he did at least use a muzzleloader. For that I give him credit. And I hear and have read, he is a heck of a bear guide in his part of the world.
==========================================================

I would submit that the gun he used is such only in description of its loading and nothing more.
Why not just take on 06 and load it with one shell?
When I was younger we mad a front stuffer out of an old 06, even loaded it with smokeless powder to shoot, was this muzzleloader? Yep and if I wanted to hunt with it, it would still be legal in the general hunt.

We all see the differences yet there seems to be some great problem with coming out and saying it so I will right here and now. An in line though being loaded from the barrel has no more place in a black powder muzzle loader hunt then a 7 mag with a breach plug and loaded with 400 grains of BP and a modern rifle bullet .
Sure these guys they have a right to hunt with what they want and i totaly suport that ,,, and that
 
Captchee makes a good point, if you have to explain the difference in the use of a 18th century type gun and a modern one and the gear that goes with it to someone who considers a ML, is a ML, is a ML then there is not point in trying, it is like explaining hunting at a PETA convention.
 
As with most things, there are strong opinions on both sides. I happen to disagree with using the term longhunter for their trophy program and just as archery includes modern, traditional and primitive catagories, so should there be a seperation in the type of weapons used within the record books. I have respectfully voiced my opinion about that to them through their website and am interested in seeing what their response will be. :m2c:
 
I do think it's very important to keep a clear focus on the point, the original intent and purpose of the record book as it was originally conceived way back when, hence the name "longhunters"...it was not intended as a modern inline shooter's book...the term "longhunters" makes the scope of that particular record book crystal clear.

Inline hunters should create their own record books...like record books for downhill skiing vs. snowboarding vs. ice-skating...they're all winter sports but obviously, radically different technology with their own record books.

Several weeks ago TG clarified it with an analogy everyone can understand:
Harley-Davidson clubs were formed to create a dedicated focus for Harley-Davidson" owners/members...not for all motorcycle owners who happen to have suzukis, hondas, etc, etc.

The issue isn't about Shockey, it's about the inappropriate allowance of high tech modern technology being allowed to establish records in what was clearly set up as a primitive weapons record book...nobody's minding the store...so bring on the F15's...the longhunters record book is now irrelevant
 
Thanks Cody, I am a trophy hunter. I go many seasons passing up MANY deer to allow them to arrive at their best mature age. I DO NOT waste the meat, I love venison, but I love hunting almost even more than eating. Meat hunters and trophy hunters should not get into this discussion because it can get ugly!
Jim Shockey may be a great hunter and deserves recognition for his accomplishment, but somehow doing ti with that kind of ML'er cheapens the accomplishment. JMHO
I am an avid bowhunter. You will find my name in P&Y and Buckeye Big Bucks. Crossbows should have (heck maybe they already do) thier own record book as well, but it is not archery anymore than ,IMHO, an inline is a longrifle.
Please don't nuke me! This is all just my opinion! :results:
 
There's another and totally different problem with in-lines. Here in Michigan the state decreed that the bottom half, roughly, of the lower peninsula is too heavily populated to use rifles. Legal firearms for deer are shotguns, pistols with straight-sided cartridges , and muzzleloaders. If the rules-makers get the idea that the in-lines will shoot 200-300 yards they may take away the right to use muzzleloaders in that portion of the state. Likewise, they may eliminate the late, special black powder season in the lower half of the lower Peninsula. However, it appears that the numbers are all on the side of the in-line shooters. Wal-Mart, for instance, doesn't have a single round ball for sale this fall. Graybeard :boohoo:
 
I think that the distiction between real ML's and modern guns may be so blurred as the technology advances that there will be little reason to distinguish between them....mostly in part to the "we are all in this together" "or hang together or hang alone" manure that the modern gun supporters throw out to justify their use in ML seasons, a strong stand should have been taken long ago, but the powers that be did not want to offend anyone or appear to be segregationist..... mistake #2 ...#1 is useing 30 year old definitions ( out of that infamous spirit some are so fond of) to define present equipment requirements
 
Dave, I feel I can speak of this issue for I am both a meat and trophy hunter. I "shoot" bears for meat and "hunt" everything else for trophy. To clarify, I don't hunt bears. I shoot problem bears at bee sites or in oats fields and put them in my freezer. Much to the farmers and bee keepers dissmay, I refuse to shoot a sow with cubs but I am not out there to "hunt", I'm just out there to shoot something to eat and I'm not choosy (not unlike most other meat hunters).
OTOH, I hunt deer selectively. call it trophy hunting but I will not shoot a deer that does not sport an impressive set of antlers. I too pass up MANY legal deer. Last year I had a fork muley so close, I would have almost had to take a step back to aim my 44" barrel rifle at it without touching it. I was just happy to stand and watch it. Most meat hunters would have killed it. I hunted about 6 weeks, saw lots of legal bucks and shot nothing. (and muley are on draw here) Two weeks ago I was out driving around and saw 4 nice muley bucks (I was fortunate enough to get drawn again this year). They were all shooters the largest one would have gone about 225-235 gross non-typical with about a 190 typical frame. They were 70 yards from the road standing broadside with not a care in the world. I had both my flint and my .270 with me and could have easily shot one of them from the window but getting a good buck is about "hunting" not just killing so I sat and waited for them to move on their way. The next day, I parked 2 1/2 miles SW of where they had been seen and walked to the field so I could aproach from down wind, the field was being combined so we hunted the east side and saw nothing. After hiking back to the truck, we drove around and decided to go down the road that passed the field and there they were again, this time 30 yards from the road. Again, i could have shot one from the truck but chose not to. We hunted that area for a week afterward and have yet to see these bucks again but that was a risk I was willing to take. To me, trophy or selective hunting is about "hunting" and meat hunting is about just killing something to fill the freezer. As far as trophy hunters eating a few steaks and throwing the rest awy a year later, I'm sure that that happens. However, I know meat hunters that shoot an elk, moose, mule deer and whitetail every year and I'm sure that the dogs get the lions share of all of that meat. Alot of people see meat hunting as noble and trophy hunting as dispicable. I have alot of respect for true trophy hunters. I'm talking about people that hunt on their own (not guided) and are very selective in what they shoot. They are usually very good "hunters". I don't know about the rest of the world, but around here you don't have to be much of a hunter to shoot the first thing you see and fill the freezer. Any twit can do that. I'm not trying to put down meat hunters and I do know that there are unethical "trophy hunters" that waste the meat, buy their trophies and so on. The point is that not all trophy hunters waste the meat but most trophy hunters are better hunters than the average meat hunter

Cody
 
IMO
Trophy hunting is not, nor has it ever been an expectable reason to hunt.

Captchee,
You stated what you feel is NOT an acceptable reason to hunt but you didn't say what you feel is and why

Cody
 
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