Longhunter's knife?

[LongrifleDoc]

New to forum with a question. What would you suggest as a period correct mid-18th century Longhunter's knife? Are the Jeff White Trade Knives or Long Hunter knives correct?

 

[Stophel]

I'm not familiar with the Jeff White trade knives, but very nice, properly styled knives are made by Wick Ellerbe (I have one of his French type). Ken Hamilton also makes them and has a good reputation.

Knives in the 18th century seem to be pretty much limited to butcher/scalper knives. Now, there are a few other types of knives that were imported, generally table knives, and of course much ordinary cutting work would be done with folding knives (just like today). But for the most part, as far as a large "belt knife", the plain old butcher knife would be what the frontiersman carried with him. English butcher/scalper knives would generally have half length, tapered tangs, with slotted wood handles held with two or three iron pins. Blades were usually a rather wicked looking curved shape with a slightly upswept point. French knives, assuming you could get one where you were, had a very nice "leaf" or "spear" shaped blade, and similarly hafted.

I made this "red handled scalper" for myself about two or three years ago out of a cheap Ontario "hop knife". It's good 1095 steel, and is ok, but not particularly stiff or hard. But it's still probably better quality than the average knife of 225 years ago. The handle is made of what appears to me to be mahogany (I'm sure it's not one of the red woods that were actually used, but it's what I had). It came from a pallet of Indonesian luan plywood. It's plenty hard and dense, whatever it is.

This one I made last year and still have to make a sheath for. Made from a considerably nicer blade, an old Cold Steel Carbon V butcher blade (I forget what they actually called it). I wish I had a dozen more. Beech wood handle.

There are also references to people carrying a "case knife with the tip ground to a point", and I have photos of one original knife that was done this way. It makes for a "higher grade" belt knife than a butcher knife, and I'm thinkin' about working up something like this...

 

[LongrifleDoc]

I thank you for your knowledgeable reply. I think that the Wick Ellerbe English Trade Knife will fit my purpose.

That certainly is a beautiful knife you made. Anyone would he proud to own it much less to have made it. Thanks again.

 

[Stophel]

Excellent choice. :wink: I'm quite pleased with my LRB knife.

 

[LongrifleDoc]

What is an LRB knife?

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Wick Ellerbe makes rather fine knives, and if you say the three letters "L, R, B" fast, it sounds like Wick's last name... "Ellerbe". :grin:
He marks the knives he makes with those initials, plus usually a mark of a fluer-de-li or a cross, depending on the style (iirc)


LD

 

[LongrifleDoc]

Well, I certainly am learning a lot from you guys. Thanks for that reply Loyalist. I didn't intend to get so involved with this Longrifle stuff but I'm afraid I'm hooked. Still just a little leery about firing my Traditions Pennsylvania Rifle since I'll have to tap the pins out to clean it. Will take it to the range when the weather improves. Just don't know any black powder shooters so I'm on my own. Done a lot of reading though. Thanks again.

 

[Stophel]

It is almost never necessary to remove the barrel from the stock for cleaning. Just leave the pins in place, and it will be fine. :wink:

You can get one of the neat clamp on tube thingies to put on the touch hole to swoosh water through the barrel, or do like I often do, and prop the butt of the gun up on something with the touch hole pointing straight down, spit a little water into the bore, and ram it down with a wet patch or tow, and shoot the water (and the crud) out the touch hole, with a minimum of funky water getting on the stock (or me). :wink:

 

[LongrifleDoc]

Yes, I ordered one of those. I'll take your advice and see how it goes. Just always taught to disassemble a firearm for cleaning and I really don't want to damage the rifle. I'm comfortable in removing the lock but how can you tell if you're collecting crud under the barrel? Won't it eventually get rusty?

 

[Stophel]

Not unless you get the gun soaking wet. If you ever work on a number of old guns, you will often see how the metal may be brown on exposed areas, but take the wood off, and the metal is fine inside. If it's something that bothers you, take the barrel out once, and put a coat of good spar varnish on the bottom of the barrel all below the wood line, let it dry, and put it back in place. The metal of the barrel will now be quite well protected against moisture. :wink:

 

[LongrifleDoc]

Wow, that's the best advice I've heard and I've been researching this a lot. Do you think that a rust preventer like Rig would be better? I am perfectly willing to go with the spar varnish, just never used the stuff. Should I put the spar varnish in the wood also?

 

[Stophel]

No, just the barrel. Spar varnish is just an outdoor/boating grade of varnish. Really, any ordinary varnish would work fine. Tung oil, Tru Oil, whatever. :wink: I put varnish all over all the metal parts of an old .22 rifle I used to keep in the shop, where our standard swamplike humidity rusts everything else I have out there solid. It's kept that rifle looking... well, looking as good as it did when I first put the varnish on it! :haha:

I would recommend against putting oil on the bottom of the barrel. Any kind of non-drying oil will soak into the wood and make it mushy. Paste wax would work too, and be easy to apply, but probably isn't the same barrier to moisture that varnish is.

Again, all of which isn't really necessary on a gun that you keep inside and don't abuse! :wink:

Sorry for the thread drift!

Back to knives... Here's the knife Wick made for me.

I think this is about the most visually attractive blade shape I have ever seen. It's just right. And I had him make the handle a bit longer than normal to better fit my large hands.

 

[LongrifleDoc]

OK. Thanks for the reply. I will do as you suggest. I, too, apologize for the thread drift. Thanks to all.

 

[Ken Cormier]

Cool info nice knife

 

[LongrifleDoc]

Yes, I think that's the knife for me. Although I don't quite understand what he means by the gap in the handle. Did you get yours filled in?

 

[Stophel]

The tang of the knife is not "full size". On the bottom of the grip, the tang does not quite reach the outside surface of the wood, so there is a shallow "groove" exposed. Also, where the tang end is rounded over at the top and bottom, there's a little opening there too. I think you can see this in the picture of the beech handled knife I made above.

200+ years ago, this gap may have been filled with cutlers' resin (or it may not have). It took a while for me to get over the un-filled handle slot, but it doesn't bother me now, and I can't feel it with my hand when holding it (some people may find it uncomfortable), so I didn't have my "gap filled". :wink:

Unlike today, these were cheap knives at the time, imported and sold by the barrel full. Used as kitchen knives, butcher knives, hunting knives, and traded to the Indians. They did not spend too much time or effort in fine finishing. Wick's knives look like these, but are most definitely nicer quality!

 

[Stophel]

Here's a photo I found to give you an idea of what the blades really look like. These knives are found in large quantities in 18th century archaeological sites all over America. Also, 18th century portraits of Indians sometimes show them holding their trade knives.

Though the pin holes are mostly plugged in this photo, from what I have seen, French blades tend to have two pin holes, and English blades three, though that's not a hard and fast rule.

On the English knife I made, I didn't taper the tang down all that much like I probably should have... I have a hard time doing "thin" :haha:

 

[LongrifleDoc]

Well, I'll be getting that knife, but I can't help but wonder why their options for knives were limited to cheap trade knives. A knife is an important item. There should have been better options available. Seems they never developed a design for boots or quality knives.

 

[Stophel]

People today can go to the sporting goods store and pick out any number of purpose-made "hunting knives", and often when they go to reenact the 18th century they think that they could have done the same thing then too. But that situation simply did not exist then. People that ran around in the woods were generally considered nuts, reprobates, and primitives. There was not much of a "hunting/camping accessories industry". That started to change, of course, and by the middle of the 19th century you could probably get almost anything imaginable, but that sort of thing was still in infancy in the mid 18th century. It took me a while to slowly come around to understanding that, though I still wonder at how they managed to get along with some of the stuff!

The butcher knives seem to have worked fine anyway. :grin:

"Table" and "Case" knives were also imported in large quantities, and they can make for a slightly more upscale "hunting knife". I forget where this knife was found...Great Lakes somewhere, I believe.

Forged bolsters, full tang, the works. Probably had horn or antler scales. Sometimes they had cast metal "pistol grip" handles. Generally not all that large in size, though.

And again, a lot of the cutting tasks were performed with regular old folding pocket knives, just like today (how many people carry an 8" belt knife around today, and everyone carries a pocketknife. Same thing 200 years ago). Many people today will field dress a deer with a folding knife, so a big fixed blade "hunting knife", though quite stylish, is not entirely necessary. I wish that more proper 18th century style folding knives were available today. There are some cheap Pakistani models sold by several vendors, and I haven't tried any of them yet, but I'm not too confident of their quality... of course they may be every bit as good as ones from 200 years ago. A few custom makers have produced a few authentic clasp knives, but since they're pretty complicated, they're not cheap. I would really like a mid 18th century Barlowe knife, myself. Antler handles. :wink: ... If anyone out there is making a Christmas list for me...

 

[Coot]

For a really nice steel folder, you might try Scot Summerville (Knifemaker to the Illinois). Have you seen the penny knives that Clay Smith of Williamsburg offers? I would be interested in opinions of those.