low POI

[Matt85]

I have been playing around with paper cartridges in my Pedersoli 1777 and am struggling to get the point of impact up to a reasonable level. I'm using a .65" ball in a paper cartridge that is dipped in 3 parts bees wax 1 part tallow. I started with a 120gr charge of Goex Fg which shoots to POA at around 20 yards but at 40 yards (the length of my backyard) it was printing 30" low! Next, I tried a 100gr charge which seemed to bring the POI up to about 8" low at 40 yards. I'll try a 90gr charge next but anything under 100gr seems pretty wimpy with these sub-caliber balls. I'm not planning on shooting any living critters with this gun, but I still want my cartridges to be of similar power to originals (no recoil = less fun).

Any suggestions on how to raise the POI without lowering the charge further?

Thank you
-Matt

 

[Rancocas]

In the Dixie catalog it recommends 60 grs of 2F and a patched .68 ball for the Pedersoli 1777 Charleville.

 

[Grenadier1758]

I have been playing around with paper cartridges in my Pedersoli 1777 and am struggling to get the point of impact up to a reasonable level. I'm using a .65" ball in a paper cartridge that is dipped in 3 parts bees wax 1 part tallow. I started with a 120gr charge of Goex Fg which shoots to POA at around 20 yards but at 40 yards (the length of my backyard) it was printing 30" low! Next, I tried a 100gr charge which seemed to bring the POI up to about 8" low at 40 yards. I'll try a 90gr charge next but anything under 100gr seems pretty wimpy with these sub-caliber balls. I'm not planning on shooting any living critters with this gun, but I still want my cartridges to be of similar power to originals (no recoil = less fun).

Any suggestions on how to raise the POI without lowering the charge further?

Thank you
-Matt

Raise the POI by changing the position of your cheek weld to see more barrel. Effectively you are raising the rear sight (your eye). Line up the front bead with the tang bolt slot. These aren't rifles, so seeing the barrel is not a bad thing.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

FWIW on MANY smoothies, especially larger breeched ones you must see barrel or you'd be shooting downhill! I have one that starts out with a breech area 1-1/4" wide and the muzzle is < 0.85". So if I looked down the barrel without seeing any of the flat of the octagonal section or tapered round section ... I'd be shooting many feet to yards under.

I visualize that there is a pencil sitting across the breech and I place the bottom of the front sight at the top of the pencil. If needed, and is GREAT to practice that cheek weld, tape a pencil or suitable dowel thickness piece across the breech to help you maintain that sight picture.

Or, and yes ... I have done many ... bend the barrel ...

 

[Beerd2]

I'm not Matt but, would he bend the barrel muzzle up?
..

 

[david w]

I'm not Matt but, would he bend the barrel muzzle up?
..

First, you should look at the fit between the stock and the barrel. If your barrel is force fit, it will definitely impact the POI. Ever wonder why free floating barrels are the most accurate? There are no external forces to interfere with the bore alignment. Bending the barrel is the last resort.

 

[ronaldrothb49]

OK trying to understand . Your saying you reduced the powder charge and that raised the POI? That makes no sense. How many shots did you fire with each Load?

 

[Indy Durtdigger]

OK trying to understand . Your saying you reduced the powder charge and that raised the POI? That makes no sense. How many shots did you fire with each Load?

Barrel harmonics, obduration of the projectile in a BP gun, and recoil impulse are among the things affected by varying powder charge and will change point of impact. Sometimes dramatically.

 

[ronaldrothb49]

Barrel harmonics, obduration of the projectile in a BP gun, and recoil impulse are among the things affected by varying powder charge and will change point of impact. Sometimes dramatically.

I been shooting competition since the 70's so I do have some experience in sighting in. Have never had a reduced charge that raised the point of impact. Need more info on how the OP is sighting it in because it sounds like operator error to me.

 

[centershot]

OK trying to understand . Your saying you reduced the powder charge and that raised the POI? That makes no sense. How many shots did you fire with each Load?

Less powder results in less velocity. Since the projectile is moving slower it tales longer to exit the barrel, which results in the muzzle being higher in the recoil arc when the projectile leaves the muzzle. Result - the ball hits higher on the target. IIRC, 60 grains is the recommended load for a Charlie, and you're shooting 100. Try the 60 grain charge and see what happens.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Get some 3f or finer in it and see some barrel.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Stop increasing charges. That smoothie was not intended to be loaded like an elephant rifle. As others have said change your hold. You will never have flat trajectory. That big hunka lead will fall fast.

 

[Indy Durtdigger]

I been shooting competition since the 70's so I do have some experience in sighting in. Have never had a reduced charge that raised the point of impact. Need more info on how the OP is sighting it in because it sounds like operator error to me.

I was just throwing out some probabilities based off your question. If the lower powder charge is responsible for the upward shift, I'd be taking a look at the barrel in letting/mounting for something causing stress or something loose. Otherwise, it's a guessing game till the OP responds back. I did look it up and as someone else pointed out 120gr is far above the manufacturers recommended safe max load.

 

[Togo]

File your front sight down.

 

[Piquant]

I have a 1777 also and it has no rear sight and like others has said you need to see some barrel. I like shooting mine with a .670 ball, 100 grains of powder in paper cartridges. Good luck.

 

[david w]

I was just throwing out some probabilities based off your question. If the lower powder charge is responsible for the upward shift, I'd be taking a look at the barrel in letting/mounting for something causing stress or something loose. Otherwise, it's a guessing game till the OP responds back. I did look it up and as someone else pointed out 120gr is far above the manufacturers recommended safe max load.

Barrels are mounted into wood. Wood has memory. The stresses are enough to influence the POI. Ideally, the barrel should somewhat float. In some cases, a barrel is bent causing high/low, left/right groups, but the main culprit is improper barrel to wood inletting. There is another possibility, the crown can, and will influence POI.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Barrels are mounted into wood. Wood has memory. The stresses are enough to influence the POI. Ideally, the barrel should somewhat float. In some cases, a barrel is bent causing high/low, left/right groups, but the main culprit is improper barrel to wood inletting. There is another possibility, the crown can, and will influence POI.

So what you are suggesting is that we should be making barrels from wood and stocks from steel?
So when the op tried a lesser charge and the gun shot higher it was because the wood was happier?
For goodness sake.....

 

[david w]

So what you are suggesting is that we should be making barrels from wood and stocks from steel?
So when the op tried a lesser charge and the gun shot higher it was because the wood was happier?
For goodness sake.....

Go back and read my post. For havens sake, man! Oh, yes, by all means make barrels out of wood. Good grief!

 

[Britsmoothy]

Go back and read my post. For havens sake, man! Oh, yes, by all means make barrels out of wood. Good grief!

Go back to the original post. No mention of group size so maybe good. No mention of sight picture by the shooter but some how you have directed him to all sorts of issues no sorry, at this stage, non issues!
Then you mention free floating a barrel. Is their any military musket muzzloaders free floated? In fact all full stocked muskets are better served with a perfect wood to metal fit period.
Other than just desiring hearing your own voice why would you at this stage lead the gent with the questions down a potentially misleading path? Does not make any sense!

 

[ColonialRifleSmith]

Well, like most post, after a while they get out of hand. So, I'm just going to tell you about my .69 cal. French 1717 Military Musket. It's made in India, which some folks on here dislike. I paid $350.00 for it several years ago. I shoot a .680 ball with 75gr 2F. It's right on at 50 yards.
Here's the GOEX load data chart and the Pedersoli load data chart. They should give you an idea where you should be safety wise for your powder charge and round ball size.
Semper Fi.