Loyalist Arms Baker Rifle

[shortstart]

I am thinking about a replica Baker “rifle”. There don’t appear tp be many options on the market. It would appear that “Loyalist Arms” is one of the few favorably regarded importers.
1. Does anyone have one of these guns?
2. If so, what is your opinion of it?
3. And’ how is Loyalist Arms todesl with?
I currently own nothing but custom built rifles and muskets but as I said, Loyalist seems like the only reasonably priced option for a replica Baker.
PS. Watched too much “Sharp’s Rifles!
All responses welcome.

 

[curator]

Shortstart:

I bought one from Loyalist Arms about 20 years ago and still have it. It is a rugged and reliable firearm. I fitted a rifled barrel on mine about 5 years ago so now have the option of smoothbore (original barrel) or rifled and can compare the two. My rifled barrel does not have the extreme slow twist of the original Baker rifle but a more modern 1 turn in 66" twist. Out to about 75 yards smoothbore and rifle are about as accurate as one another. I am loading a .600 round ball with a .018" canvas patch on top of 70 grains of FFFg black powder. At 100 yards, the rifled barrel is more accurate. I have only once shot the rifled barrel at 200 yards but was able to keep hits inside an 18" circle despite the crude sights. The folks at Loyalist Arms are great to deal with and go over their guns before delivering them to customers. I am sure that they "tuned" the lock on my Baker as it is much smoother and sure-sparking than a friend's Baker bought from another vender.

 

[FlinterNick]

The Indian made bakers are not high fidelity repro’s Of a Baker Rifle. Baker Rifles ought not to be ‘cheap’. If you want a quality baker rifle, get it customized by The Rifle Shoppe, they have the best parts and request a barrel that is rifled accordingly.

 

[AAOG]

That guns don't resist any analysis ... All the India made are not real guns... Is just non expensive decorations.

 

[shortstart]

Shortstart:

I bought one from Loyalist Arms about 20 years ago and still have it. It is a rugged and reliable firearm. I fitted a rifled barrel on mine about 5 years ago so now have the option of smoothbore (original barrel) or rifled and can compare the two. My rifled barrel does not have the extreme slow twist of the original Baker rifle but a more modern 1 turn in 66" twist. Out to about 75 yards smoothbore and rifle are about as accurate as one another. I am loading a .600 round ball with a .018" canvas patch on top of 70 grains of FFFg black powder. At 100 yards, the rifled barrel is more accurate. I have only once shot the rifled barrel at 200 yards but was able to keep hits inside an 18" circle despite the crude sights. The folks at Loyalist Arms are great to deal with and go over their guns before delivering them to customers. I am sure that they "tuned" the lock on my Baker as it is much smoother and sure-sparking than a friend's Baker bought from another vender.

Curator, thanks for the info. Much appreciated. How much trouble was it to fit the rifled barrel and what brand was it? Thanks again.

 

[smoothshooter]

The Indian made bakers are not high fidelity repro’s Of a Baker Rifle. Baker Rifles ought not to be ‘cheap’. If you want a quality baker rifle, get it customized by The Rifle Shoppe, they have the best parts and request a barrel that is rifled accordingly.

That may be true concerning the Rifle Shoppe, but some people are not willing to

The Indian made bakers are not high fidelity repro’s Of a Baker Rifle. Baker Rifles ought not to be ‘cheap’. If you want a quality baker rifle, get it customized by The Rifle Shoppe, they have the best parts and request a barrel that is rifled accordingly.

Anyone ordering anything from The Rifle Shoppe needs to be aware that there is a LONG. List of customers that have been waiting for years for parts that they ordered.
Some have been waiting over 5 years.

 

[curator]

Curator, thanks for the info. Much appreciated. How much trouble was it to fit the rifled barrel and what brand was it? Thanks again.

As I remember, the "replacement" barrel was made by Colerain. It was on "close-out" from TOW for a very low price at the time. Making a breech plug that matched the hooked breech mortice was the only difficult part---That and lining up the barrel tenons and key-ways. I did not bother making a bayonet mount for it. At one time Ed Rayl was doing these as an extra service for one of the India-made gun importers. He too had/has a long wait time. As some of the posters here have pointed out, the India made Baker rifles are not perfect enough for wealthy patricians. Hard-core "thread-counter" reenactors will not be satisfied with them. Sometimes, a gun needs only be good enough for who its for.

 

[Griz44Mag]

Sometimes, a gun needs only be good enough for who its for.

Thank you for such clarity of thinking....

 

[shortstart]

As I remember, the "replacement" barrel was made by Colerain. It was on "close-out" from TOW for a very low price at the time. Making a breech plug that matched the hooked breech mortice was the only difficult part---That and lining up the barrel tenons and key-ways. I did not bother making a bayonet mount for it. At one time Ed Rayl was doing these as an extra service for one of the India-made gun importers. He too had/has a long wait time. As some of the posters here have pointed out, the India made Baker rifles are not perfect enough for wealthy patricians. Hard-core "thread-counter" reenactors will not be satisfied with them. Sometimes, a gun needs only be good enough for who its for.

Well said Sir!

 

[FlinterNick]

That may be true concerning the Rifle Shoppe, but some people are not willing to


Anyone ordering anything from The Rifle Shoppe needs to be aware that there is a LONG. List of customers that have been waiting for years for parts that they ordered.
Some have been waiting over 5 years.

I order parts and kits from TRS all the time, the wait for individual parts is around 2-3 months. Depending on the kit you order it could take time.

Baker Rifles are routinely ordered from the The Rifle Shoppe as they’re one of they’re more popular items; you just needed to call them and ask which pattern they have in stock, for example if you request the .68 cal Baker Rifle, you’ll end up waiting because that barrel needs to be customized by Ed Rayl or Bobby Hoyt. K

The more Rare and complicated the kit the less quickly you’ll get it.

Brown Bess Muskets, Charlevilles, Springfields, Bakers, Spanish and German guns they tended to stock a good amount of parts for.

If you want a really nice rifled millitary flintlock, order the 1817 common rifle, its one of their more stocked items. Personally I think the 1817 is a much more better shooter than the baker rifle.

 

[FlinterNick]

As I remember, the "replacement" barrel was made by Colerain. It was on "close-out" from TOW for a very low price at the time. Making a breech plug that matched the hooked breech mortice was the only difficult part---That and lining up the barrel tenons and key-ways. I did not bother making a bayonet mount for it. At one time Ed Rayl was doing these as an extra service for one of the India-made gun importers. He too had/has a long wait time. As some of the posters here have pointed out, the India made Baker rifles are not perfect enough for wealthy patricians. Hard-core "thread-counter" reenactors will not be satisfied with them. Sometimes, a gun needs only be good enough for who its for.

Swapping out the barrel of Indian made Baker Rifle wasn’t as easy as TOW made it sound in their add, so many people complained they’ve since added caveats stating that the barrel needs to be custom fitted.

 

[FlinterNick]

That guns don't resist any analysis ... All the India made are not real guns... Is just non expensive decorations.

I don’t know many folks who haven’t had to alter or change or repair an Indian gun. One fella brought an Indian musket to me, when removing the breech plug it was found that the plug was too long and cover over the interior of the vent area, to add the threads were much deeper and thinner causing them to crack when unsealed. Finally the bore wasn’t straight the difference between one side of the barrel and the other was about 1.01 thick on one side to .045 thick on the other, which indicated to me that his was a DOM 1015 -1041 colded rolled barrel, the Indian gun makers call them seamless like its a selling point; but the lower amount of carbon in the steel and the rolling / folding process is not subject to extensive hardening procedures.

No thanks, I’ll pass on Indian made guns.

 

[FlinterNick]

I am thinking about a replica Baker “rifle”. There don’t appear tp be many options on the market. It would appear that “Loyalist Arms” is one of the few favorably regarded importers.
1. Does anyone have one of these guns?
2. If so, what is your opinion of it?
3. And’ how is Loyalist Arms todesl with?
I currently own nothing but custom built rifles and muskets but as I said, Loyalist seems like the only reasonably priced option for a replica Baker.
PS. Watched too much “Sharp’s Rifles!
All responses welcome.

Loyalist arms is probably the best distributor I’d trust for Indian made guns.

If you look at their specials page, you’ll notice that sell off their flawed guns at a deep discount. Some of the other distributors such as Middlesex and Veteran arms will sell flawed guns on Gunbroker or Armslist as usable.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/652/4/COLE-62-BAKER

"Tapered 30" round barrel for England's first official issue rifle. These barrels now feature six groove square cut riflling in antique fashion. Tapered round 1.125" at the breech, 30" long, .880" at the muzzle. Breech is threaded 3/4-16. The Baker breech plug, furniture, and lock castings are available from The Rifle Shoppe."

"1 turn in 66 inch twist, in .62 caliber with square rifling "

LD

 

[RAEDWALD]

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/652/4/COLE-62-BAKER
"Tapered 30" round barrel for England's first official issue rifle. These barrels now feature six groove square cut riflling in antique fashion. Tapered round 1.125" at the breech, 30" long, .880" at the muzzle. Breech is threaded 3/4-16. The Baker breech plug, furniture, and lock castings are available from The Rifle Shoppe."
"1 turn in 66 inch twist, in .62 caliber with square rifling "

LD

Not the same as the Ordnance Baker which was 1 turn in 120 inch twist and a 7 groove rifling. Not a criticism of the barrel maker. They supply from their barrel stock and rifling machine. Closer to some Volunteer Bakers which never saw active service and accepted greater fouling for more accuracy.

 

[dave_person]

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/652/4/COLE-62-BAKER

"Tapered 30" round barrel for England's first official issue rifle. These barrels now feature six groove square cut riflling in antique fashion. Tapered round 1.125" at the breech, 30" long, .880" at the muzzle. Breech is threaded 3/4-16. The Baker breech plug, furniture, and lock castings are available from The Rifle Shoppe."

"1 turn in 66 inch twist, in .62 caliber with square rifling "

LD

The Baker was not the first rifle issued to English troops. Before it was the pattern 1776 muzzleloading rifle issued to light troops in the AWI and of course a much more limited trial issue of the Ferguson. Also, most, but not all, Bakers had twist barrels and the browning highlighted the twist.

dave

 

[FlinterNick]

The Baker was not the first rifle issued to English troops. Before it was the pattern 1776 muzzleloading rifle issued to light troops in the AWI and of course a much more limited trial issue of the Ferguson. Also, most, but not all, Bakers had twist barrels and the browning highlighted the twist.

dave

The 1776 is a fine rifle, its almost a perfection of a later Hessian Rifle. I’ve always liked the look of the Pistor Jaegers, with some more advanced upgrades like the double bridled locks and folding sights, they’re a great hunting target rifle. TVM used to offer a Jaeger that was similar to a Pistor.

Two often less discussed military rifles are the 1817 common rifle and the 1795 French Infantry Rifle. My personal favorite is the 1817 which I’m currently working on parts for. The French Infantry Rifle was a nice design, Bianchi’s book has some decent references.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Nick,
Yes, the French rifle seems like a nice design. I've never seen or handled an original but I'll bet it handles very well. I may be building a British pattern 1776 for the 40th regiment of foot. I know "Comfortably Numb" built at least one. It is a very nice rifle and far sturdier than the Ferguson.

dave

 

[FlinterNick]

I’ve seen a Ferguson demo live, had a chance to hold it and play with the trigger guard bolt. I liked the barrel on the Ferguson, for a rifled tappered barrel I thought it was ahead of its time; however one can’t help but notice that the flintlock, mortise and bolt/guard seems very delicate, almost like the forestock is barely holding together.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Nick,
I built, own, and shoot a Ferguson from TRS parts. I like it and it shoots well but I can readily see and experience its weaknesses. One extra turn of the breech plug and it falls out of the action. It would be so easy to break the gun at the lock or lose the screw plug.

dave