loylist arms

[rawhide]

ok gang does any of you have any of their guns?
looking at a couple of their musket or trade guns for trade gun comp. I don't need fancy brake the bank gun just something for fun.

 

[762subsonic]

I have a 1756 Artillery Carbine. I purchased it before I wound up with a NSW Officers Musket.
http://loyalistarms.freeservers.com/british174050carbine.html

 

[Firelock937]

Well rawhide, I guess you know you have opened a real can of worms. Get ready to hear what awful pipebombs all Indian muskets are.
I recently purchased one of Loyalist's "special offers", a doglock musket with a damaged stock. It was not quite finished and I made the repair and put a stain and finish on the stock myself. Everything else was complete. The musket has functioned flawlessly....nice spark and sure ignition. The lock seems quite sturdy and smooth. These muskets come with a lot of "shiney" that you can knock off. Because mine was a special it is not covered, but Loyalist does back them with a warranty. I believe they are one of the better sources, along with Middlesex Village, for the Indian stuff, and not bad for a knock around shooter, especially on a limited budget.

 

[rawhide]

kinda what I'm getting not a match grade gun but will work. wich is what I'm after something for trade gun comp and if I want I can go hunt up a grouse or 2 with it. and yes I know it's not us made but thats ok nether was cva but I just took yesterdays club shoot with one... beetting out some very expencive customs.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I have a carbine and a 1st Model Bess. I like them both, and they work quite well.

LD

 

[rustylaidlaw]

I've had to shoe a few of their hammers lately. Sometimes the case hardening lasts, sometimes it doesn't. I'm local to them, so I see a lot of their stuff come into my shop to get re-done. Blair specifically says his guns are not proofed and it's not recommended to shoot from them. I wouldn't buy one.

 

[curator]

I have bought several guns from Blair at Loyalist arms for our museum's historical reenactor corps. They are nice people and they give good service. The India-made muskets are not proofed but this is easily done and I have never had a problem with any of them. In fact I feel they are good value for the money even if they need a bit of "tweaking" at first to get them operating smoothly. Most of our reenactors are pleased to spend less than half of what an Italian replica would cost particularly when they get scratched and dinged in service.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Blair specifically says his guns are not proofed and it's not recommended to shoot from them.

That's an odd comment, as from the website under liability, it does not say it's not recommended to shoot from them. In fact they recommend the buyer proof the gun especially if bought without touch hole drilled. NOW why would they be encouraging buyers to stress their "blank only" guns by shooting them with a large load of powder, and several ball when firing of a projectile isn't recommended? Would it not be simpler and safer for them to say "blank firing only"? It's obvious from the website they are meant to shoot live rounds. My muskets came with proofing instructions.

Here is what is written, and from this it sounds as though Blair doesn't recommend shooting live ammo unless the barrel has been proofed by the user, not a complete ban on live fire.

Due to the nature of all muzzle loading firearms, proper use, loading, cleaning, maintenance, proof testing, etc. are the sole responsibility of the purchaser. .... The customer, sutler or their gunsmith prior to regular use MUST proof all firearms that are sold without touchhole drilled.

We recommend strongly that ALL muzzle loading firearms, no matter who the manufacturer is, be proofed before regular use.

Further the website sells firearms, which means they are meant to launch bullets. I don't doubt what you remember, just that what has legal application is they are meant to shoot. Perhaps you should mention this to Blair?

LD

 

[Rev_William]

We recommend strongly that ALL muzzle loading firearms, no matter who the manufacturer is, be proofed before regular use.[/i]

OK semi newbie question since I am reallly wanting an inexpensive fowler/shotgun and I have been lookin at a cpl of their's. What is "proofing" and what are the safe steps to do it with out loosing any important body parts

 

[juancho]

Ok , so I hear all the time proof or not proof bla...bla.................
But NO ONE EVER has come up with a "standard" for proffing anything, and I don't mean from the factory or anything like that.Just some not nonsense basics based on the caliber of the gun, and wether is rifle or smoth bore.I would assume a rifle is more prone to blow up for a given wall stock as the rifling would create stress points by the very nature of it.
Now can someone list what is a recomended proof load per caliber rifle/smoth
say for example a .50 cal rifle 400 grains and 3 patch round balls , or something of that nature please.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Juancho, you'll find all the proofing information you will need in the back of every Dixie Gun Works catalog printed for at least the last 50 years. They use the Birmingham Proof House standard. Remember to use a bore sized ball, not undersized like you will be shooting. If you are proofing a barrel that measures .69, use a .69 caliber ball (not .685) hammered down on the powder charge.

Have fun.

 

[juancho]

THANKS!!
That is exactly what I was looking for , would you mind sendind me that info, or posting it somewhere on the forum.I don't have any Dixie cataloges or know where to get them.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Sorry, don't have a scanner. The catalog is easily available by mail from them and the cost (for the catalog) is reasonable at $5. It can be purchased from the website at:
http://www.dixiegun.com/

Right there on the first page.

You can look around for an out of date copy at a gun show and you will get it for less. Since I won't do business with them anymore, my latest copy is 1985 and the info is in there as it has been since at least the early '60s.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

OK semi newbie question since I am reallly wanting an inexpensive fowler/shotgun and I have been lookin at a cpl of their's. What is "proofing" and what are the safe steps to do it with out loosing any important body parts

OK well way back in the day, when the European monarchies and empires bought musket and rifle barrels, they bought them from their own armories, AND bought them from subcontractors. To be sure the government workers weren't screwing up or that they weren't getting ripped off, as many government suppliers where sometimes caught doing, they would test fire the barrels with a larger than normal charge, and heavier than normal projectile load. The barrels would then be inspected for defects, like cracks or bulges, and when found to be still whole, the barrel was stamped with a mark to show it had been tested and passed, thus the "proof mark" was applied to the barrel. In England this began in 1637.

By 1813 a "Proof House" was established in Birmingham, England, as well as in some other countries, such as Belgium, France, Germany, and Italy. Eventually they settled on a standard pressure and method for proofing, and have come to an agreement that these countries will recognize each other's proof house as an acceptable tester for imported gun barrels.

NOTE: There is NO AMERICAN PROOF HOUSE, and American made barrels are not required to be proofed before sale.

So, YES there is a set standard that is currently set to proof a gun barrel, even black powder gun barrels. It's the same in Birmingham, England as in Italy. (You can ship your barrel of to England if you wish it proofed by Birmingham.)

There is no such house in India. The makers of the muskets with Indian parts will give you instructions on firing a proof load of your own, and Veteran Arms has in the past offered to do it for the buyer, if desired.

Another NOTE: While proofing uses a higher pressure load, it does not test the maximum pressure that the barrel will withstand. It simply uses a charge that exceeds a specific pressure for the barrel by a percentage, and if the barrel holds that pressure without deformation or damage, it has passed.

LD

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

OK semi newbie question since I am reallly wanting an inexpensive fowler/shotgun and I have been lookin at a cpl of their's. What is "proofing" and what are the safe steps to do it with out loosing any important body parts

OK well way back in the day, when the European monarchies and empires bought musket and rifle barrels, they bought them from their own armories, AND bought them from subcontractors. To be sure the government workers weren't screwing up or that they weren't getting ripped off, as many government suppliers where sometimes caught doing, they would test fire the barrels with a larger than normal charge, and heavier than normal projectile load. The barrels would then be inspected for defects, like cracks or bulges, and when found to be still whole, the barrel was stamped with a mark to show it had been tested and passed, thus the "proof mark" was applied to the barrel. In England this began in 1637.

By 1813 a "Proof House" was established in Birmingham, England, as well as in some other countries, such as Belgium, France, Germany, and Italy. Eventually they settled on a standard pressure and method for proofing, and have come to an agreement that these countries will recognize each others proof house as an acceptable tester for imported gun barrels.

NOTE: There is NO AMERICAN PROOF HOUSE, and American made barrels are not required to be proofed before sale.

So, YES there is a set standard that is currently set to proof a gun barrel, even black powder gun barrels. It's the same in Birmingham, England as in Italy. (You can ship your barrel of to England if you wish it proofed by Birmingham.)

There is no such house in India. The makers of the muskets with Indian parts will give you instructions on firing a proof load of your own, and Veteran Arms has in the past offered to do it for the buyer, if desired.

Another NOTE: While proofing uses a higher pressure load, it does not test the maximum pressure that the barrel will withstand. It simply uses a charge that exceeds a specific pressure for the barrel by a percentage, and if the barrel holds that pressure without deformation or damage, it has passed.

LD

Sorry Dave, you are incorrect on two points in your statement that I have highlighted in the quote of your reply. You said:

There is no such (proof) house in India. The makers of the muskets with Indian parts will give you instructions on firing a proof load of your own, and Veteran Arms has in the past offered to do it for the buyer, if desired.

(1) There is indeed an Indian Government proof house, it is at the government arms manufacturing plant in Ishapore. ALL arms made as firearms in India, whether factory or licensed, privately produced firearms are required to pass Indian government proof standards. These proofing standards and methods at Rifle Factory Ishapore (RFI) adhere closely to those of the parent proof house in England, that being the British government firearms proof facility in Birmingham. All real firearms MUST PASS PROOF. If they do not bear the following, they are produced as and are legally under Indian law, Imitation Firearms and are not intended to be fired in any way:

"Private sector manufacturers of firearms are required by law to get every firearm stamped to show: the maker’s name and registered trademark; the serial number of the weapons as entered in his register and the year of stamping; and proof-mark (Arms Rules (1959) Section 25)".

(the above is quoted from "Integrated National report on the implementation of
International Instrument to Enable States to Identify and Trace, In a Timely and Reliable Manner Illicit Small Arms and Light Weapons in all it’s aspects"

and

(2)Since these items are not considered under Indian law to be firearms (they are legally considered "Imitation Firearms"), no Indian maker of these "Imitation Firearms" will (quoting you) "give you instructions on firing a proof load of your own". This may be done in the US or Canada by the companies or individuals who have purchased these Imitation Firearms from Indian makers, but not by the Indian makers or the Indian Government. Their recommendations or, in the case of Veteran Arms methods, are not in adherence with Indian Government standards which are very strict as are those practiced by Birmingham or any of the European Proof Houses.

For more information see: THE INDIAN ARMS ACT - 1959, CHAPTER II, Section 6 - License for the shortening of guns or conversion of imitation firearms into firearms.

Also, keep in mind that while some say they "build" these in Canada or the US, the meaning of build is a little ambiguous. As I understand it, maybe incorrectly, these are imported as "in the white" assemblages of parts and simply finished here.

I am not saying that these are pipe bombs waiting to injure, kill or maim the shooter, far from it. The Indian companies and the makers that work there are more than capable of producing fine firearms at a good cost. While these are not in their general form to my taste in an HC firearm, there are far too many of them out there being shot regularly to say that they are, as a whole, unsafe. We simply do not know enough about the heart of these alleged firearms - the barrel. There are too many questions about their material and, in some cases, their breaching. If they had RFI proofmarks and had the date of their manufacture and the name of their makers stamped on them, I would say that there is no doubt about their safety. The Indian reproduction Enfield Rifles and Rifle Muskets and others brought in back in the 1970s were proofed and safe, why not encourage the makers in India to do that again? Could it be so that the profit margin for the companies doing the buying from the Indian makers and the selling to the North American public will be higher? :idunno: The cost addition would not be that much.....

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I am sorry for you are quite correct, what I should've written was there is no proof house in India that conforms to the international standard by signing the international agreement for such a proof house. This is what my research shows. Not that Ishapore isn't doing an equally valid job..., but as far as I have been able to research, the Indian government hasn't signed onto the international standard known as the C.I.P.

The nations with CIP proof houses are

Austria
Belgium
Chile
The Czech Republic
Finland
France
Germany
Hungary
Italy
Russia
Slovakia
Spain
United Arab Emerates
United Kingdom

I have no answer as to why muzzleloading barrels are not submitted to proofing while in India, but you may have answered the question yourself. Doesn't such proofing then cause them to be legally recognized as firearms, and thus are highly restricted as to export, and doesn't that also restrict who can manufacture them inside the country? It may be that the few dollars for actual proofing is not the only increase in price when you create an actual firearm in that country :hmm:

Here's a question for you.... If the Indian proofing is equal to the CIP, why don't they become part of the CIP?

LD

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

If the Indian proofing is equal to the CIP, why don't they become part of the CIP?

No demand from the manufacturers and their customers? Just read the facts Dave, they do have a proof house and it does conform to the Birmingham standards. They have sold functional muzzle loading firearms in the past and are fully capable of doing so now - there appears to be no demand, that's all I'm saying. We get generally what we want to pay for, it's the free market at work.