Lube War #1

Stumpy: RE: "lube wars". It sounds like you testing for rust preservative. No?
If so that has been done at least five million times in labs including the military.
Cosmoline is the BEST even aginst salt water.
If you want a lube for long term storage and can't find cosmo get some LPS 3. They claim you can spray the stuff on plain carbon steel, toss in it your yard and a year later it won't show a bit of rust.
I did just that, and sure 'nuff, no rust. LPS 3, great stuff. it's PRESERVATIVE, not a lube so I wouldn't spray it in the action of your auto pistol or revolver, but on the bore or outside metal it can't be beat. From the smell of it I suspect it has a beeswax base.
LPS 2 is a fine LUBE as are many others. Sheath ain't worth a manure as a preservative compared to others and NOTHING beats LPS 3.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Spray? The DeVilbiss atomizer didn't get invented until 1888, and it wasn't until 1927 that Erik Rotheim of Norway (just for you, Xtramad :winking invented the aerosal spray can. Yeah, I know, "What a putz."

I know there's lots of good modern products (I use CLP Breakfree and have used LPS 3 in my modern guns). I'm looking for an old-tech product of the kitchen variety.

You got your period trekkers over in the other category - I'm doing period chemistry. For no other reason than I'm curious (and I will be using the "winner" in my muzzleloaders). I'm what the potters of the 1700's would call a "crack pot."

A few years back I bought a $40 Mosin-Nagant rifle that came in a encrusted block of hardned cosmoline (or the Russian equivalent). It looked like it was salvaged out of the LaBrea Tar Pits. A gallon of Hoppe's #9 later it looked nice and new, but the wood was forever stained and reeked to high heavens. Sold it for $50.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Which reminds me:
Day one. T/C Number 13 solvent begins to show rust
Day two. ditto
Day three. Mutton Tallow developed an even coat of rust overnight. I'm amazed that the plain water rinse on bare steel still has not.

 

[davidthered]

Its all a trick, see these 'preventives' all make rust, so you think "Gee, I gotta get more of this stuff on my gun, before it gets worse!"

They sell more.


of course, I'm just kiddin'

 

[buckknife]

stumpy that pistol i coated with lard pulled out brown patches in 24 hours,manure how the heck did some one back in the old days using only animal fats renderd keep ther fronstuffers from rusten,i caint belive they used hot water on em every night with the few supplys of powder and balls they had an being in hostile country.Pitcure a brand spanken new rifle an all you have is some type of lard or tallow to use.Do you go out and shoot it 200 times that day to get it seasoned or did they somehow heat the barrels up with this stuff in it before hand haven them seasoned some how before they even fired a shot?I caint hardley belive they wasted that much powder an ball on a new gun,just dont sound fesable for the times.

 

Interesting comments here. Just how did the old timers prevent corrosion in the field or on a trek?
I suspect they lived with it.
I've read that black powders of that period were much better than the black we have today. The stuff still fouled of course, but less than the junk we have now.
I doubt a frontiersman or trapper/hunter cleaned his rifle with boiling water every night. He simply shot the thing and reloaded.
Now if the powder was better than the manure made now, fouled less, and he used a patch lubed with bear grease, lard, whatever, the fouling was pushed downbore ahead of the ball. The lubed patch coated the bore and gave some protection. Did the bore rust? Heck yeah it rusted, but maybe not as much as we think.
At any rate "freshing" out a barrel was a common practice. I doubt the barrel was worn out from shooting. Likely it was worn from rusting and maybe even pitting.
it would be interesting to load a barrel with a light charge of Swiss under a p/r/b with a good lube, shoot the thing, reload and put it away uncleaned for a few days then run a clean patch down over the charged barrel and check for rust.
Now I just happen to have a T/C .50 and I might just do this experiment.
Stumpy, you come up with a good homebrew, send me a couple ounces and I'll sacrifice the barrel.
Oh and just to stir the pot a little. :haha:
If all we can get is Goex and it goes booooom, and makes lotsa smoke and we hit the target then we might be led to believe that Goex is the BEST powder that ever lived. But upon what can we compare the results? What is the "standard"? There isn't one.
Elephant is dirty stuff, but some lots of Elephant are superior to some lots of Goex.
Try shooting light charges of 3fg Swiss in a small bore, .45 and smaller and you'll about manure when you swab the thing and find only a trace of light grey fouling on your swab. Use this and you'll throw rocks at Goex and Elephant.
Unfortunately Swiss has limited uses in muzzle loaders, but it prooves it is a much cleaner, less fouling powder than Go-junk and Elepoof. Now before you throw rocks at me understand that I use Goex and Elephant. Why? They work, are cheap, I have some, and Swiss isn't the best stuff in larger bores.
Anyway, I think the barrel test is a good idea.
What say Stumpy?

 

[Stumpkiller]

The original rifles didn't have steel barrels. They had iron. Iron is actually pretty stable stuff and quickly gets a surface rust, but that oxidation then protects the underlying metal. I doubt a man in the field cleaned his rifle frequently. He would have had to shoot it daily or pull the charge - and shooting your rifle in "hostile" territory (thereby alerting locals to your presence) and then setting down to clean it would be unwise and a waste of precious ball and powder. I would bet it was practice to use a very lightly greased wad of tow to coat the bore with bear grease or remains of cooking grease ahead of a charge in place just to keep the fouling from pitting the bore. Have never heard this mentioned (AND DO NOT RECOMMEND IT).

I believe it was Wild Bill Hicock that shot his Colt Navies every evening so they would always have a fresh load.

As for a barrel test - I'm using my beloved .54 Renegade. I will send you a batch to see if you get similar results. I have one in the front running I like, and my "moose milk" recipe seems to be no better or worse that the usual homebrew stuff.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Day one. T/C Number 13 solvent begins to show rust
Day two. ditto
Day three. Mutton Tallow developed an even coat of rust overnight. I'm amazed that the plain water rinse on bare steel still has not.

Had a brain hiccup and decided to test a spot with glycerine (used as a lube, anti-freeze and moistening agent - seemed like a possibility in a patch lube). I wiped a portion of one of the control regions that appeared rust free and then wiped on some glycerine. An hour later it was the rustiest spot on the plate! Guess that was a dead-end.

Re-applied all coatings (gnats seem to like castor oil. Had a couple dozen stuck to the plate on that zone??).

Placed the plate flat on the ground and ran a line of FFg all around the test grid so that each coating had a spot that was covered in powder and a 'clear' section. Replaced the powder horn back in the house, stepped back several feet and tossed stick matchs at the plate. Yippee! Took the plate to the side of the house and rinsed it with the hose. Amazing result #2. The section that was just Murphy's Oil Soap rinsed absolutely clear of all powder traces the instant the water hit it! The only other spot that rinsed clean, eventually, with just hose spray was the beeswax/mutton tallow/Crisco. Wiped the whole plate clear of powder with a rag, a bit of detergent and water. The WD-40 section was the hardest to get clear of all residue. It had a decidely 'tar-like' quality. Dried the plate with paper towels and a heat-gun, then re-applied all coatings.


Here's a list of the coatings being tested.

1 Lehigh Valley Lube
2 Olive Oil
3 WD-40
4 Natural Lube 1000 +
5 My grease lube mix #4
6 My liquid lube & solvent mix (a "moose milk" type)
7 Glycerine
7-1/2 Control
8 Castor Oil
9 Witch Hazel
10 Murphy's Oil Soap
11 Mutton Tallow
12 T/C Number 13 Solvent
13 CLP Breakfree
14 Control
15 Hoppe's Lubricating Oil
16 Beeswax (rubbed in dry w/rag)
17 Beeswax/Mutton Tallow/Crisco (equal parts mixture)

The last one was my standard lube for 15+ years before I 'discovered' Natural Lube. I still use it to coat the edges of my fiber shot wads for smoothbores.

 

Stumpy: Is there any difference between T/C Bore Butter and Nat'l Lube 1000? I thought they were essentially the same thing.
I'd love to test your lube in an old T/C .50 1:48 twist with a good bore that I'm not using as I replaced that barrel with a G/M 1:60.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Is there any difference between T/C Bore Butter and Nat'l Lube 1000?

Nope. It just is a pain to type T/C Natural Lube 1000 Plus Bore Butter every time. T/CNL1K+? T/C & Ox-Yoke Wonder Lube 1000 Plus are the same stuff (I think??). I have some old Wonder Lube that is MUCH different (it's white and requires cleaning between shots).

I have to ammend my earlier observation of the Glycerine. It quickly discolors the steel, but it is more a stain than rust? It had become almost black and was smooth, while the other rusty spots are brown/orange and rough - regular rust. I wiped some on a clear area off the grid and it did the same thing. Turns the steel dark in a few hours, but is not a cakey, scaley rust like a waterspot or fingerprint. I'll return it to the test program as an ingredient, I guess. We'll see how it does in the long run. I was in a hurry this morning and didn't study the steel. Looks in passing like the Hoppe's Lubricating Oil area is starting to rust.

 

[roundball]

My understanding is that the term "bore butter" is sort of a generic term, where Natural Lube 1000 is a specific brand name of bore butter, like Wonder Lube is.

FYI...I've seen a couple of articles over the years indicating that TC used to have an earlier version of Bore Butter that was much thicker & stiffer than today's NL1000 Bore Butter...maybe it was that older white stuff you mentioned...said it used to be used on their conicals, but was dropped and replaced with NL1000.

I've never tried any other version of bore butter other than NL1000, and for my uses it's been[url] perfect...in[/url] fact, I recently bought some boxes of unlubed maxi-hunters and lubed them using a TC luber on a tube of NL1000, and they gave excellent accuracy.

The NL1000 out of a tube is soft and messy, so it seems like field reloads would need to be carried in some sort of 'speedloader' type item...I tried TC 4-N-1 Quick Shots and they were simple, clean, etc.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Whaddya think? Look good as a logo?

S t u m p k i l l e r' s
MOOSE SNOT
All Weather Prophylactic
Patch Lube & Sensual Rub

 

[musketman]

Whaddya think? Look good as a logo?

Nice picture, has logo written all over it...

Just one question, how'd you get Zonie to hold still long enough to draw him... :haha:

 

[roundball]

Here's a tube of TC's early style bore butter called "Maxi-Lube" (discontinued)

http://members.aol.com/wjcutbush/maxilube

 

[Zonie]

Whaddya think? Look good as a logo?

Nice picture, has logo written all over it...

Just one question, how'd you get Zonie to hold still long enough to draw him... :haha:

O corse that ain't me. Iffen Ah squints a little it are lookin more like a MOOSEketman ta me!

As fer tha kind O ul what tha old timers used, Ah'm a bettin ye can be PC an UN-PC at tha same time!

Iffen Ah'm recallin correctly, Whale Oil wer considered 'bout the best stuff anyone could use on thar fin machinary.
So it is PC (Period Correct).
Corse, jus havin Whale Oil now a days are about as Un-PC (Politically Correct) as ye can get.

 

[Rebel]

I have a tube of that Maxi-lube, (Great name for a lube, eh what). :: Sorry Maxi, couldn't help my self. Anyway, i have never used it, came in a box of stuff i got one time. Is it any good for anything?

 

[musketman]

I have a tube of that Maxi-lube, Is it any good for anything?

Makes for a right fine target...

I would use it, I like a thick paste type lube like wonder lube and the likes...

 

[Rebel]

makes for a right fine target.

I hadn't thought about that. Ought to plaster all over the place when hit. Especially with a .690 rd ball. Good idear there M M

 

(Great name for a lube, eh what). :: Sorry Maxi, couldn't help my self.

Say, wish I'da thort a that! :haha:

 

[Stumpkiller]

Scratch glycerine. I tried a few small batches with variations on the grease theme and it didn't work out. One of my proceedures is to pour a molten batch into a glass container and see how it holds together. I learned this some time ago - a mix that stratifies as it cools is useless as a semi-solid lube. The glycerine does not stay mixed with the beeswax. Dead end for that component.

Results on plate after one week:

1 Lehigh Valley Lube
<< Tiny amount of rust along one edge. None in center grid section (could have been a poor application on my part.

2 Olive Oil
<< Small amount of rust where powder was flashed

3 WD-40
<< Also a tiny amount of rust where powder flashed

4 Natural Lube 1000 +
<< Thin, even coat of rust where powder flashed. More than shows with any of the above three.

5 My grease lube mix #4
<< None! No rust as yet.

6 My liquid lube & solvent mix (a "moose milk" type)
<< Small dots - pin head size - I assume to be rust where moisture was trapped in the film under the oil. See Week 1 conclusions.

7 Glycerine
<< Dark spotty stains now beginning to show rust in the centers

7-1/2 Control
<<Light, even rust coating the entire section

8 Castor Oil
<< OK - no rust as yet.

9 Witch Hazel
<< Small blotchy patches of light rust

10 Murphy's Oil Soap
<<OK - no rust

11 Mutton Tallow
<< Evenly rusted

12 T/C Number 13 Solvent
<< Spotty rust. About 50% of both the flashed and unflashed sections

13 CLP Breakfree
<< One, fingerprint sized dark stain. Does not appear to be rust

14 Control
<< Evenly rusted

15 Hoppe's Lubricating Oil
<< Some dark staining, but again, does not yet appear to be rust

16 Beeswax (rubbed in dry w/rag)
<< OK - no rust

17 Beeswax/Mutton Tallow/Crisco (equal parts mixture)
<< OK - no rust


Conclusions after the first week:
Murphy's Vegetable Oil Soap shows surprising preserving and clean-up properties (this was the only section that the fouling flowed of with a light water spray and no mechanical rubbing).

Castor Oil shows no rust while Olive Oil is just beginning to.

Plain old beeswax, when applied thick, seals the metal well enough to prevent oxidation and is apparantly neutral or even active in keeping it rust free.

T/C Number 13 is not a rust preventer.

Lehigh Valley Lube apparantly is still OK (I had heard that the new stuff wasn't as good at preventing rust as the Pre-Ox-Yoke variety).

My old standby beeswax/mutton tallow/Crisco seems to be a happy mixture, as I had thought right along.

I need a better test facility. Some of the tiny dots may be spider poop. The plate is out in my three sides open car port, and I noticed the little dots in some regions resemble dots on the Vinyl house-siding where spiders have webs. Gnats seem to be attracted especially to the Castor Oil and Hoppe's Lubricating Oil. They might also be on their way to the beeswax and those two oils are non-hardening and gooey. I will try rubbing a few of the dots with a Q-tip dipped in Acetone and see if they disappear (if they don't get any larger during Week #2).

Based on the above results I made up a simplified version of my grease mix using only the rust-free ingredients and tinkered around until it had the consistency I want.

Eight parts Castor Oil
Two parts Beeswax
One part Murphy's Oil Soap

This one proves excellent in the Integrity Test (does it stay mixed without moisture collecting on the bottom or oils on the top of the sample), Container test (does it stay in place without running or oozing out of an open Altoids tin full of it set up on it's side at room temperature), Patch Test (does a proper amount of it stick to a cotton patch dragged across the surface - not too much, not too little), Smear Test (put a dab on a finger and rub it on a drinking glass and examine the smear for consistant coverage and lack of 'clumps'), Abrasion Resistance Test (try to rub the smear off with the heel of your hand - it must leave a light film), and Clean-Up Test (does soap & water easily remove it?)

I'm sending a sample of this to an independent test facility (a.k.a. Maxiball) for shooting satisfaction and accuracy testing. I'm hoping to get out next weekend and try it myself.