Lyman GPR Flint: Fantasy Piece?

[Smokey Plainsman]

Thanks so much, all.

After some reading it appears the lock on the Lyman is not a very good one, it has bad geometry and issues according to some.

I understand that L&R makes a replacement lock in case the one onboard isn't good... I really like these shorter plains rifles and as much as a percussion gun like a Pedersoli Rocky Mountain Hawken excites me, I feel drawn to try a flintlock since all I've ever shot is percussion.

I just don't know.

 

[kansas_volunteer]

How many full stock Hawken flintlock Survive? The fact there are no flint half stock Hawkens says nothing about what the Hawkens actually built. As a representation of Plains rifles in general the GPR is reasonably good. It is probable half stock flintlock Plains rifles were made. No one can conclusively, beyond a shadow of a doubt declare they were never made. Those who do are buffalo chipping you.

When I bought my flint GPR kit I had money burning a hole in my pocket. I bought a RPL lock, which is quite nice, and Deerslayer triggers to make the gun appear even more like an early 19th century gun. More money than sense maybe, but I'm happy.

The geometry of the standard GPR lock can be corrected, posters here have said, by replacing the cock with one from a late T/C.

There are other things that can be done to make a GPR more like a real old time Plains rifles. If you pursue the project I can post for you some links to earlier discussions of this.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

Thank you.

I should confess that I'm no builder. I do not "do" kits and believe me, I've tried. I prefer to buy my arms pre-made.

 

[kansas_volunteer]

There's nothing hard about building a GPR. If you chose an RPL lock you will have to do some inletting, but unless you're a total klutz you can handle it with just basic tools. Just stay focused and stop when your mind starts to wonder. Do the work in your head before you do it with your hands.

I'm surprised when these GPR versus genuine Hawken discussions come up that no one ever gets excited about the sort of nose cap and entry pipe assembly of a GPR and those found on "real" guns differ. It's enough to make the psychoticly obsesive crowd sputter, turn red and pass out.

 

[FishDFly]

So I have heard a lot good about the Lyman Great Plains Rifles for an affordable yet very good quality rifle. Now I know these are based on the J&S Hawken rifles that were made as percussion guns. So that makes me wonder... is something like the Lyman GPR with a flintlock a "fantasy" gun?

About the same as a "fantasy" wife.

 

[Eddie Southgate]

A lot of the reading I have done on the Fur Trade era seems to indicate that quite a few of the Mountain Men / Plains Hunters had a preference for the flint guns . You can fire a flintlock with a piece of busted arrowhead or chip your own if you run out of good English flints mid season but there were no stores selling percussion caps where you would be at that time . I don't think the Lyman would qualify as that much of a fantasy piece.

Eddie

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

Thanks, all. I am not going for 100% historical accuracy, no sir, but don't want something that is totally unrealistic to the extreme.

Leaning pretty heavily towards the Lyman GPR in .54 caliber in flint lock all. If it turns out the lock is a dud, I'll probably buy an L&R or other quality replacement lock.

 

[dodger]

""", do you know of any flintlock rifles that were made in this general pattern, that being a half-stocked "plains" type rifle? Or were all the guns produced like this made in percussion only? Not necessarily by just the Hawken bros., but by the other makers of plains rifles as well.

Thanks! [/quote]"""

I found this after not a great deal of searching ;
https://ruxtonmuseum.org/2016/01/12/bill-willyums-his-rifle/

So if a plains flinter is your fantasy , I would say fantasize away old boy !
Enjoy your shooting .

 

[pargent]

Almost a copy of the late flint trade guns offered by the British to Indians , these are in Bailey's book on rifles in North America :wink:

 

[kansas_volunteer]

Another thought. (Maybe someone else has already thrown it out.) The concept of half stock flintlock was around before the Hawkens or anyone else started making Plains rifles. There was the 1803 Harper's Ferry rifle. It wouldn't have taken much imagination to go from that to a civilian half stock flinter.

I don't recall exactly, but don't some think Lewis and Clark may have half-stocked and shortened some of the government Lancaster pattern Chiefs rifles (is that the right term?) And taken them west. Again, a step away from purpose made half stock flintlock Plains rifles.

The concept was certainly floating around.

Getting farther away from fantasy, I want to recut the dovetails on my GPR to take Amerkin sights that I like better. Also I intend to cut slots in the barrel wedges and pin them into the stock so they can't get lost. There are two differently dimensioned wedges on the GPR. Pinning them will help avoid confusion. Also the wedges aren't easily replaced if lost. I don't think any of the usual purveyors of parts stock them and dealing directly with Lyman isn't as convenient as ordering from TOTW or others.

 

[Eddie Southgate]

""", do you know of any flintlock rifles that were made in this general pattern, that being a half-stocked "plains" type rifle? Or were all the guns produced like this made in percussion only? Not necessarily by just the Hawken bros., but by the other makers of plains rifles as well.

Thanks!

"""

I found this after not a great deal of searching ;
https://ruxtonmuseum.org/2016/01/12/bill-willyums-his-rifle/

So if a plains flinter is your fantasy , I would say fantasize away old boy !
Enjoy your shooting .


[/quote]

Seems I have seen pictures and read of Hawken making rifles in flint. I believe in both half stock and the heavy plains type full stocks . I believe it was in Muzzle Blast in the 60's . I get down to my other house I'll see if I can find some of my old issues .

Eddie

 

[Walks with fire]

While I have never even seen much less fire a Chambers flint lock I do own a L&R late English, a improved TC and also a Lyman coil spring lock and I can say this the Lyman is a very good lock.

The Lyman has great angle, pan fits without gaps and sparks great. Never over a couple hundred shots has it failed to fire. In fact; I like it more than the others.

I think if you purchase a GPR flint .54 you will be happy with the rifle. I myself would have chosen it over the Deerstalker but I don't like the curved butt plate. I also prefer to buy factory rifles but I add drop in barrels. I choose for the lock, stock and single hunter triggers. I see no need for percussion ignition either.

Most of my rifles have a carbine barrel length, a long barrel and a bullet barrel that drop-in for the same stock.

 

[Walks with fire]

Getting the wedges to fit correctly isn't much of an issue and if done so you will never loose a wedge key. Pin if you want but certainly not needed. I also thought the dovetails were 3/8" on Lyman's? I am not taking the sight off to find out. The barrel I am making now will be 3/8" if any is cut. I may just drill and tap but I like the ability to drift a front sight though.

 

[pargent]

The English guns are dated from 1816 , they were very common and apart from the drop and buttplate they are the real deal and were supplied to many of the plains tribes that traded along the Canadian border .

 

[nkbj]

The way a .54 GPR handles and shoots it can fulfill just about anybody's fantasies.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

Thanks so much, all.

I just heard from some the Lyman flintlock locks were not so awesome. Some say you have to have the bevel upside down, so basically the flint upside down in the jaws to get good sparks?

 

[Grenadier1758]

Bevel up or bevel down should not be considered a right side up or wrong side down choice. The right way is the way you can get the most sparks in the pan.

More important than bevel up or down, you need to set the striking
angle to be about 55 to 60 degrees.

Needless to say, while I still think the Lyman GPR flintlock is a good rifle, in the context of the architecture of the style,it is at best very uncommon and at worst an undocumentable form that appears to be a flintlock version of the Hawken rifle. It would be much better to have a half stock flintlock rifle following the architecture of the English sporting rifles.

 

[excess650]

Some folks spend way too much time worrying about what might be HC.

Leman built guns in whatever configuration folks (or Gov't contracts) wanted. Full stock half stock, rifled, smooth, flint, percussion brown or bright. Some were dirt plain and others fabulously fancy.

I saw a Deringer rifle a couple of weekends back that was reputedly a Chief's Grade trade rifle. It was a large diameter barrel, long, full stocked, flint, patchbox, and engraved. Had it not been for such a heavy barrel, I might not have half believed the story.

Many guns were made for the westward expansion and trade, but most of them didn't survive. Lots of original flint guns were later converted to percussion.

 

[Elnathan]

I do not accept the term "fantasy rifle". A fantasy rifle would be a gun used in a fairy tale.

Fairytales set in an entirely fictional past are plentiful. A few are even recognized as such... :wink:

 

[Elnathan]

All snarkiness aside, nostalgia for the past has been and continues to be a fruitful ground for fiction, whether it be King Arthur, Charlemagne, or Disney's Boone and Crockett films. Once we allow that Fantasy doesn't have to include elves and dwarves, I suspect that "fantasy" is more apt a term than a lot of us would really like to admit.