Lyman GPR Flint: Fantasy Piece?

[Smokey Plainsman]

Hey guys! As some of you may know I am looking at all my options for a flintlock rifle, actually my first black powder rifle ever. I have been firing the pistols for a long time and love it and want to get into the rifles this spring/summer.

So I have heard a lot good about the Lyman Great Plains Rifles for an affordable yet very good quality rifle. Now I know these are based on the J&S Hawken rifles that were made as percussion guns. So that makes me wonder... is something like the Lyman GPR with a flintlock a "fantasy" gun?

To all you experts out there, do you know of any flintlock rifles that were made in this general pattern, that being a half-stocked "plains" type rifle? Or were all the guns produced like this made in percussion only? Not necessarily by just the Hawken bros., but by the other makers of plains rifles as well.

Just a question for you rifle gurus out there. It's not a deal killer if this would be an inauthentic design, I really like the rustic straightforward look and apparently these are a step above the Traditions guns but don't cost as much as a Pedersoli.

Thanks!

 

[Tom Compton]

I saw half stocked plains rifles with flintlocks at the Cody museum. I don't recall any one specifically attributed to the Hawken shop(s).
TC

 

[Gene L]

Several steps above a Traditions rifle, IMO. I have a percussion GPR and it's a great rifle. "Fantasy" rifle? I don't think so. I browned mine, which I don't know if it's PC or not and don't care. It's MY rifle.

 

[Bo T]

I am looking at 'A History of Spokane House 1810-1826' Standards of Trade Columbia River 1824-1825. And it lists "Guns fine half stock each" for trade at 30 beaver pelts at Ft. George. Apparently taken from 'Fur Trade and Empire: George Simpson's Journal'.
I have no idea on the design of these half stocks.

 

[dodger]

Make sure you handle the gun and check that it sparks OK ,check trigger function as well .
By the time I had fixed everything on my rifle , I could have bought a Pedersoli for less money .

My take on the subject of authenticity/fantasy ;
You would need to build a time machine and go back in time to find out for sure . I believe that some of the early guns would have been flintlocks , but also many of them would have been converted . Survival rates for these guns would not have been very high .These guns were sold to settlers with families travelling west who were not, shall we say highly skilled riflemen . Therefore a percussion gun would have been preferable and more practical .

If I were buying a Hawken right now for my own use and with the benefit of hindsight , I would buy a historically correct percussion gun of the best quality that I could afford , rather than buy a cheaper gun with the thought of trading up later . It will be less expensive in the long run ,I'd have a greater pride in ownership of the piece and a whole lot more enjoyable experience.
But then again , what the hell do I know ?
:idunno:

 

[BrownBear]

To all you experts out there, do you know of any flintlock rifles that were made in this general pattern, that being a half-stocked "plains" type rifle? Or were all the guns produced like this made in percussion only? Not necessarily by just the Hawken bros., but by the other makers of plains rifles as well.

I'm by no means and expert, but a fan of trade rifles in general, as well as Hawken-made rifles. To me it's more representative of the general plains rifles. For comparison, look at the rifles made by Leman, as well as more modern versions as represented in these made by the Green River Rifle Works a few decades back.

 

[Walks with fire]

Being a fan of the plains rifle I would venture to say the GPR is pretty good for it's price. If you bought it in kit you can modify it to your liking.

I don't get caught up in PC because my rifles are for hunting with patched ball and I use a flint lock.

I bought the Lyman Deerstalker mostly because it had a single trigger, wide flat butt plate and a reliable lock. I will be installing the longest slow twist barrel I can for correct balance for me. Some of the original Hawken plains style barrels were as long as 40". I ordered a 42" and will adjust the length to get the balance right for the factory stock.

Some like rifles that are slim and graceful but I like something with some meat to it. Sure they weigh more but in my opinion they shoot better.

 

[excess650]

Henry Leman was selling rifles under contract into the 1860s, and lots of those were still flintlocks.

Leman apprenticed with Melchoir Fordney, worked with Tryon for a few years, and then opened his shop in the 1830s. Fordney was still building flintlocks when he was killed in 1846.

 

[BrownBear]

Here is a good read about Leman and his rifles/trade guns. Pretty incredible production numbers over the years!

 

[Spikebuck]

See middle gun: J Henry Scroll Guard rifle. While the GPR is certainly not a copy of this, you asked if there were flintlock "plains" rifles:

 

[bubba.50]

To all you experts out there, do you know of any flintlock rifles that were made in this general pattern, that being a half-stocked "plains" type rifle? Or were all the guns produced like this made in percussion only? Not necessarily by just the Hawken bros., but by the other makers of plains rifles as well.

I'm by no means and expert, but a fan of trade rifles in general, as well as Hawken-made rifles. To me it's more representative of the general plains rifles. For comparison, look at the rifles made by Leman, as well as more modern versions as represented in these made by the Green River Rifle Works a few decades back.

to my eye, almost of all those Leman guns pictured on the GRRW site look very much like the CVA Frontier Rifle. :hmm:

 

[Spikebuck]

I think I have to retract my picture as answering the question. For some reason my old brain was thinking that J Henry Scroll Guard was a half-stock. But upon further pondering :hmm: me thinks I was wrong...that was a full stock.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

The GPR is a fine rifle as a starter, or simply as your rifle. They look good, they shoot well, and are pretty close to the "plains style" of half-stock rifles. They are not a copy of an existing rifle, and some day you might want such, but it's not necessary. They are out-of-place at a Revolutionary War (or earlier) event, BUT so would an original plains rifle.

LD

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Hey guys! As some of you may know I am looking at all my options for a flintlock rifle, actually my first black powder rifle ever.

Sent you a PM about an Austin & Halleck flint Mountain rifle, errrr ... Hawken.

 

[cowboysteve]

Your memory served you well, the J.Henry "Scroll Guard" Trade Rifle was indeed a full stock rifle. First came out in 1834, as the successor to the J.Henry "English" version full stock flinter.

 

[BrownBear]

To all you experts out there, do you know of any flintlock rifles that were made in this general pattern, that being a half-stocked "plains" type rifle? Or were all the guns produced like this made in percussion only? Not necessarily by just the Hawken bros., but by the other makers of plains rifles as well.

I'm by no means and expert, but a fan of trade rifles in general, as well as Hawken-made rifles. To me it's more representative of the general plains rifles. For comparison, look at the rifles made by Leman, as well as more modern versions as represented in these made by the Green River Rifle Works a few decades back.

to my eye, almost of all those Leman guns pictured on the GRRW site look very much like the CVA Frontier Rifle. :hmm:

Or perhaps the imported CVA resembles the much more expensive hand-built in the USA GRRW's? :grin:

 

[bubba.50]

To all you experts out there, do you know of any flintlock rifles that were made in this general pattern, that being a half-stocked "plains" type rifle? Or were all the guns produced like this made in percussion only? Not necessarily by just the Hawken bros., but by the other makers of plains rifles as well.

I'm by no means and expert, but a fan of trade rifles in general, as well as Hawken-made rifles. To me it's more representative of the general plains rifles. For comparison, look at the rifles made by Leman, as well as more modern versions as represented in these made by the Green River Rifle Works a few decades back.

to my eye, almost of all those Leman guns pictured on the GRRW site look very much like the CVA Frontier Rifle. :hmm:

Or perhaps the imported CVA resembles the much more expensive hand-built in the USA GRRW's? :grin:

you know what I meant. but your way do sound better don't it? :bow: :v

 

[Grenadier1758]

As I recall, most of the flintlock "plains rifle" guns would be full stock. These are the Henrys, Deringers, Lemans and others. The only half stock flint rifles of the period would be an English sporting rifle or the 1803 Harper's Ferry. Its not likely that the 1803 Harper's Ferry would have been considered available for the Mountain Man era as it was still a serviceable military issue arm. The English sporting rifle is also an uncommon candidate due to the cost and rarity of such a firearm.

I'm with Loyalist Dave. As a reliable and accurate on target entry level flint lock rifle, the GPR is a good choice. The historical provenance is not there for the flint lock GPR to be other than a fantasy rifle.

These pictures are from the book "English Guns And Rifles" by J.N. George

Note that all of the rifles are single trigger and the scroll guards are more elaborate than the Lyman GPR.

 

[Zonie]

It's just my opinion but I think too many people get hung up on the word "Hawken" when asking about possible flintlock halfstock plains rifles.

That greatly reduces the possibility of of the answer being yes.

It's like asking, "Were there any factory Ford automobiles sold to the public in the early 1930's with superchargers?" (The answer is, no.)

vs

"Were there any factory made automobiles sold to the public in the early 1930's with superchargers?" (The answer is yes, there were many of them.)

To the best of my knowledge, no half stock Hawken flintlock has ever been documented and no written record of such a gun has been found.

That doesn't mean there weren't other gunmakers who did make flintlock rifles during the age of the mountain man that looked very similar to a half stock Hawken.

 

[hanshi]

I do not accept the term "fantasy rifle". A fantasy rifle would be a gun used in a fairy tale. The GPR is just that, a PLAINS rifle. Far too may rifles are called "Hawken" when they bare absolutely no resemblance to a Hawken. And Hawkens were not all that common in the first place.