Lyman GPR vs Trade rifle

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Karwelis,
Thank you for your concern... The set I ordered looks to be a flask with a spring loaded valve and seperate measure.....
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=00061900100

If it turns out that it is now what I expected, it's either go back, or into the back of the safe until I do a BP pistol.... have shot them too and they really are fun....
 
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The Cut off plate is very thin, springs open( wedge effect) when black powder residue collects on the plate, leaving a path from the full charge of powder in the flask to your barrel, where an ember can set off the flask, like a bomb in your hand. The cut off plate( gate) has to be cleaned regularly. Most shooters have no clue how to take them apart, much less how to clean them. And many never even think it might be a problem. Just the moisture in the air on a humid day is enough to "glue " residue to that cut off plate. It builds up as the gate slowly is sprung more and more open, until its hard to open or close the cut off plate(gate). That residue burns, too.

Attaching a powder measure to a flask is asking for trouble, IMHO.

Always pour your powder from your main powder source, be it the can, a powder horn, or a flask, into a separate powder measure. Then, close the main powder source, and only then dump the powder from your measure into the barrel.

I have been in the habit of running a damp cleaning patch down my barrel after every shot, to clean away powder residue( My first percussion rifle was a very tight .45 caliber barrel) and to snuff out any embers that might be lingering down at the back of the barrel.

Before that, I blew down the barrel to blow out the embers and to clear the nipple on the gun. Only when I saw no more smoke coming out the nipple, or a vent hole in a flintlock, would I consider putting the next load of powder down the barrel.

Both systems work.

The first looks better to novices and the uneducated, who have not trained themselves to NOT blow down a Loaded barrel by "accident". It is the safest way to deal with a freshly fired barrel that you want to reload, and do that safely.

As we have seen here with the New Year's celebration in that one town, not everyone worries about safety when firing MLers.

So, its your gun, hand, head, life, etc. Do as you think best.

Far be it for me to object to a man's God Given Right to pee on that electric fence wire to discover why I don't recommend doing it. :shocked2: :nono: :shake: :rotf: :rotf: :hatsoff:
 
paulvallandigham said:
........

Attaching a powder measure to a flask is asking for trouble, IMHO.

Always pour your powder from your main powder source, be it the can, a powder horn, or a flask, into a separate powder measure. Then, close the main powder source, and only then dump the powder from your measure into the barrel.......

So, its your gun, hand, head, life, etc. Do as you think best.

Far be it for me to object to a man's God Given Right to pee on that electric fence wire to discover why I don't recommend doing it. :shocked2: :nono: :shake: :rotf: :rotf: :hatsoff:

Well gee Paul I guess great minds think alike seeing as what I am looking for (and thought what this Knight set did) was a set up that would easily allow me to pour the powder from it's nice safe storage and carying container into the measure that will allow me to transfer it into the the barrel of my rifle. I had no intention of playing a "Jerimiah Johnson" wannabe and dumping powder girectly from the horm or whatever container I have straight into the barrel......

That is good info about the residue and the gate... Sounds like something to watch out for and maybe modify.

As for the electric fence, I saw a kid do that when I was in cub scouts - none of us knew it had juice running through it :shocked2: :shocked2: :shocked2: .


That said, there are Darwin award finalists out there that might not grasp these concepts.... :(
 
I still have my original flask, from Navy Arms. I use it to hold corn meal, or cream of wheat that I use as a filler in my rifle, in place of an OP wad. I can, of course, disassemble the flask, and clean the gate with ease, but I decided that I would rather not worry about how much residue and crud were gathering on that gate, during either a club shoot, a hunter's walk, or in the field.

There are two constants that I live with around any kind of technology: Murphy's Law( "If anything can go wrong, it will. Corollary #1: If going wrong at a particular time will produce more disasterous results, than at any other time of your day, That is when it will go wrong! Corollary #2: If you think you escaped with minimum damage when something goes wrong, DUCK!- It ain't over 'til the Fat Lady sings!!), and higher than expected relative humidity( ie. Torrential rains when the weatherman is forecasting a continued drought!).

Given those facts of life, I err on the side of caution. :blah: :rotf: :hmm: :rotf: :rotf: :thumbsup:
 
Paul,
SPeaking of Murphey - I just lost a long reply when my connection hiccuped so here is a short version. I am well acquainted with the antics of Mr Murphey - to the point that I try to plan for worst and best case scenerios....

So what would you suggest? Obviously an adjustable measure is needed. What do I carry the powder in? I know it's quite easy to just premeasure a handful of charges, put them in some container, and toss them in the bag. But what if I want to carry about a quarter pound of powder with me? Enough for say 25 shots or more at ~90 grains per shot?
 
Maybe I didn't look hard enough - read at all - Is ther by chance a stuck thread that detailes the equipment you will eventually end up with after you've tried all the neat looking stuff and settle on what actually works? I really would prefer to save some time and effort on this...

Horn or flask? what type? pictures and examples? why do you prefer one type over another if it comes to personal preference.... Maybe a "Show me your kit" thread is in order???
 
Hockeyref said:
Horn or flask? what type? pictures and examples? why do you prefer one type over another if it comes to personal preference.... Maybe a "Show me your kit" thread is in order???

well a "show me" is a great idea. here is whats in mine when i go shooting. and the powder measure i use is a straight 60gr. my gpr seems to like that, and its not hard to eyeball a little more with that.
possiblebaggear002.jpg
 
Most of us who want to be " Traditional" end up with a powder horn, to carry our powder, rather than a flask. Flasks are appropriate for matchlocks, and Wheellocks, but at least in N. America, the powder horn became very popular during the flintlock era, and remained the primary powder supply carrier into the percussion era, for civilian use.

Now, there are 7000 grains to the pound. 1/4 pound is 1750 grains. But, 25 shots at 90 grains a shot is 2250 grains. I would suggest, therefore looking for a small horn that can carry up to 1/2 pound of powder to meet your goal.

For now, Use the flask with its powder measure. Just pour the powder from that measure to a SEPARATE( ie. from the powder flask) measure, before pouring the load into your rifle. Most of those attached powder measures require you to hold a thumb over the end of the tube, so that you then throw a measure of powder based on the length of the tube, when the gate is closed behind the powder.

I think you will be surprised at how inconsistent that method is for throwing powder charges. I was. I began learning as soon as I bought and used my adjustable measure. Then, I went home, pulled out my RCBS powder scale, and measured 10 throws from that flask.

That is when I decided that I didn't need those problems, together with that crud that was keeping the gate open so that some powder continued to dribble out as I was releasing the powder in the tube into my scale pan.

That also was the first time I took my flask apart, and Cleaned the gate.

I tried to blame the crud buildup on some sloppy factory oiling of the gate. But, as I continued to use the flask to pour powder into my separate powder measure, the gate loaded up again, both front and back, with residue, and I later became convinced that it was the relative humidity that pretty much controlled how much, and how thick, the crud would get on a given day.

I did experience a day at the range, Clear, cold, crisp, and very low Relative Humidity, when No crud appeared to stick to the gate.

Murphy was messing with me on that day! :rotf: :thumbsup:

Look at flat sided horns, because they are generally smaller, and hold less powder. The long, fancy round horns tend to get out of hand when it comes to size, and the amount of powder they hold.YOu can use those big horns, of course. No one says you have to fill them up with powder, to lug around.

I have two horns that are round, but shorter, than many you see, that would meet your criteria, so they are out there. One is an antique horn from the early 1800s, that is 10 inchs long, measured around the long arc, by 2.030" x 2.240" at the plug. The horn was obviously shortened about 100 years ago, when repairs were made, as some of the original scrimshaw work was cut through. The second horn is 8" long, over the arc, and the plug is almost a true 3 inches round. They both hold about 1/2 pound of powder.

I am using these horns to shoot a .50 caliber rifle with 65 and 75 grain loads for target, and hunting respectively. They also do duty to feed my 20 ga. fowler, and my 12 gauge DB shotgun.

I am building a .36 caliber rifle and will be making a small flat horn to carry enough powder to feed it when hunting rabbits, and squirrels. At 30 grains a shot Max, a salt shaker would probably hold enough FFFg BP for those needs. This one is intended to ride in the back pocket of my jeans, or in my front shirt pocket. I will limit it to 750 grains of powder. I have a priming horn that holds that much and more powder, as far as that goes!

Use the flask safely, and wait until you can get to one of the bigger rendezvous, or to Friendship where you can visit several venders that have horns for sale, I shopped hard to find both a priming horn and my main horn in the same style, and in the lengths I wanted. They were close enough that some people thought I had bought a matched set of horns! In truth, one horn came from one vender, and the other from another vender at Friendship. I do believe they were made by the same horner, however.

My antique horn was a gift, found in an antique mall by a friend, who bought it for next to nothing because of the damaged mouth. I had Bruce Horne restore the horn for me, and he did an excellent job. Bruce not only builds horns, and repairs them, but he collects them. He has some truly beautiful, as well as very old horns in his collection.

So, check on the antique shops, and estate sales, and garage sales to see what you can find. If you let antique shop owners know you are looking for such a horn, they will look for you, also. You don't have to buy any horn they call you about, but they will take your name and phone number and let you know if they have a horn they picked up somewhere. :thumbsup:
 
Paul,
We truly are on the same page and thinking alike...... I want\need something to take to the range to get to know my new rifle and get my feet wet - in essence, burn powder, and make some smoke & noise. I have been looking around for various BP supplies for a couple months now and I truly don't care for the quality of what I see in the stores as far a powder horns, etc..... I think on another thread they were described as "cheap reproductions made in India - that look like they were made in india no matter what you do to dress them up. Same with a lot of the other stuff. It makes me want to do the research and try to make a lot of it myself....

I know there are true artisians out there that produce quality kit and I will eventually find them. $15 - $25 for a brass flask that is "serviceable " is not too much to pay. Besides, I could always remove that valve assembly if it really starts to annoy me. Not that hard to make a fixed brass or antler "charger" to dump the powder into the barrel once I determine what the gun likes..... This is going to be a fun journey....

Steve
 
karwelis said:
Hockeyref said:
Horn or flask? what type? pictures and examples? why do you prefer one type over another if it comes to personal preference.... Maybe a "Show me your kit" thread is in order???

well a "show me" is a great idea. here is whats in mine when i go shooting. and the powder measure i use is a straight 60gr. my gpr seems to like that, and its not hard to eyeball a little more with that.
possiblebaggear002.jpg

Karwelis,
What all do you have there?
Obvious is the multitool, screwdriver, knife, powder horn, fixed brass charger & brass pan primer, pan brush & pick, spare flints, patches, short starter, and varios cleaning jags. WHat I don't know\can't make out is the stuff to the left and right of the jags. One looks like a long needle with a big eye, the second is the long hook with the brass wedge on the end (is this for pulling the wedges out to remove te barrel?). The other item I can't make out looks like an antler charger that is under the knife, screwdriver, and shrot starter... maybe a piece of antler for knapping flint?
 
Hockeyref said:
Karwelis,
What all do you have there?
Obvious is the multitool, screwdriver, knife, powder horn, fixed brass charger & brass pan primer, pan brush & pick, spare flints, patches, short starter, and varios cleaning jags. WHat I don't know\can't make out is the stuff to the left and right of the jags. One looks like a long needle with a big eye, the second is the long hook with the brass wedge on the end (is this for pulling the wedges out to remove te barrel?). The other item I can't make out looks like an antler charger that is under the knife, screwdriver, and shrot starter... maybe a piece of antler for knapping flint?
lets see, the "brass wedge" thingy is a knaopping hammer for flints, the long needle with the eye, is a vent pick. and that thing under the short starter is another powder measure
 
" It makes me want to do the research and try to make a lot of it myself...."



Now you're talking! Make it yourself and if you don't like you can just make another till you get it right. It sure sounds like you may be getting the BP bug! :)
 
SMO,
Definitely got the bug... actually contracted it (Smokepolius Fronstufferage :grin: :grin: ) in the early 80's when I first shot a friends CVA .45 something or other. But I fought it off until now... :surrender: I actually looked into building one from the ground up in '84 as there was a local shop called "The Antique Rifle Works" that specialized in Black Powder, muzzel loader, and Schutzen rifles. I was 18 opted to spend the $$ on girls, bikes, and cars... :thumbsup: :redface: :redface:

I've been heavy into "trad" archery for quite a while. (shot bows 37 of my 43 years and only did the training wheel bows for maybe 5 years in the mid 80's) I have made a couple bows, many dozens of arrows, quivers, arm guards, tabs, strings, etc. I have never hesitated to make it, fix it, or modify it where I saw fit....

The only question is will I pick and choose what works for me or try the "period correct approach".... probably depends on what I'm doing but I'm pretty sure it will all qualify as "primative" rather than "modern" .... :shocked2:
 
karwelis said:
Hockeyref said:
Karwelis,
What all do you have there?
Obvious is the multitool, screwdriver, knife, powder horn, fixed brass charger & brass pan primer, pan brush & pick, spare flints, patches, short starter, and varios cleaning jags. WHat I don't know\can't make out is the stuff to the left and right of the jags. One looks like a long needle with a big eye, the second is the long hook with the brass wedge on the end (is this for pulling the wedges out to remove te barrel?). The other item I can't make out looks like an antler charger that is under the knife, screwdriver, and shrot starter... maybe a piece of antler for knapping flint?
lets see, the "brass wedge" thingy is a knaopping hammer for flints, the long needle with the eye, is a vent pick. and that thing under the short starter is another powder measure

Karwelis,
All I can say is DUH! that vent prick looks exactly like the one on hte chain... I honestly did consider the possibility of using the "brass wedge thingy" to knapp flint...

Did you make or buy this stuff?
 
made the horn and the bamboo powder measure, also my bag, and loading block, it holds 10 patched round balls. the rest i picked up i think from track of the wolf
 
Hockeyref--- Glad to see another tradionalist (bow) got the black powder addiction.

Did the GPR arrive yet? Let us know what you think as you dive in to the build project.

What I did to satisfy my "needs" while I did my first build was to buy a Trade Rifle from Midsouth for $260 bucks or so. The month before I had spent $350 bucks on JUST modern ammunation for some of my other toys, so I was thinking---'For the same amount I pay for ammo I can have a muzzleloader and all the fixings, and I can start shooting and learning.' Other than the rifle itself, the only other items I needed were:

1 can 3F powder - $13
Ball starter - $10
Ball puller - $1.87
Pack of 100 .010 prelubed patches - $3.50
Graduated Powder Measure - $11.00
Priming Powder Measure - $11.00
.54 cal round balls - $9.00
6 Flints - $10.00

Hence, I spent about $60 bucks for needed accessories and consummables.

Thus, for about $320 bucks I was completely IN BUSINESS.

I was shooting in 5 days!!! And putting big OH Round Balls into clover leafs at 50 yards...

(SIDE NOTE: I'm getting into traditional bow shooting and ATLATL's now. I just ordered two ATLATL's and some darts. I need to get another primitive bow but don't want to spend a bunch of money on one. About a 45 pound draw. Any ideas, hockeyref?)

Hockeyref---Really good to have you on board here. I'm sure you will love your GPR and enjoy shooting real black powder!
 
Zoar said:
Hockeyref--- Glad to see another tradionalist (bow) got the black powder addiction.

Did the GPR arrive yet? Let us know what you think as you dive in to the build project.


(SIDE NOTE: I'm getting into traditional bow shooting and ATLATL's now. I just ordered two ATLATL's and some darts. I need to get another primitive bow but don't want to spend a bunch of money on one. About a 45 pound draw. Any ideas, hockeyref?)

Hockeyref---Really good to have you on board here. I'm sure you will love your GPR and enjoy shooting real black powder!

Zoar,
The GPR will be here tomorrow - so says the tracking info..... Kinda anxious to get my hands on it... and I know what you mean about the "modern rifles". I shoot NRA HighPower, as well as Mid and Long Range prone... upwards of 5k rounds a year - probably $1500 just in ammo (all reloads)

On your need for another bow...... If you don't have "The Traditional Bowyers Bible" series - get them... great reading on how to make stick bows....

In the mean time go here: http://groups.msn.com/ferretsarcherywebpage/welcome.msnw
and check out Mickey Lotz's info and tutorials on building self bows. Go get yourself some wood and start making wood chips.

Steve
 
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Yes, tradional muzzleloading (for me at least) has been much LESS costly than modern shooting. "Ammo" (consummables) is about nothing. And, I think you will be very pleased with the degree of accuracy obtained with iron sites and a big 'ole round ball. I'm really glad you started with a flintlock too. Flints Rule The Earth.

Thanks for the info on wooden bows too. It looks valuable.

Good luck with your GPR! You did get the 54, caliber right?
 
Sir--

When you get your GPR, please be aware that the inside of the bore is heavily coated with some kind of preservative muck which must be completely removed before firing. I think that it makes some kind of reaction with the powder and hardens causing no end of grief. :cursing: On my GPR I used carburetor cleaner, alcohol and then soap/water.

The crown of the barrel where the rifling meets was so sharp that it was gouging my ramrod and short starter. Also cutting my patches at loading. Following Mr. Zonie's recommendation, fine grit sandpaper and my fingertip for backing, not some hard material, along with circular motion took care of that issue very well.

"Thanks, Zonie!" :thumbsup:

I really like my GPR in .54 and have little doubt that you will, too.

I have named mine "Miss Kathleen" in honor of a rare woman that did not have the capacity for telling untruths.

"Less powder, more lead.
Shoots farther, kills dead."
 
Jack,
Thanks for the heads up... I was actually considering "coning" the muzzle an will most likely lap the bore before shooting it so it will be squeaky clean and smooth.

Zoar,
Yes, it is a .54.... UPS says that it's on route to my house... hope the wife doens't sleep throught he UPS delivery..... says signature required....
 

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