Lyman GPR vs Trade rifle

[Zoar]

54 is a great caliber! Sage choice.

 

[hockeyref]

It's heeeeer! :applause: :grin:

So first impressions:
1) It's "oily" - gonna need to scrub the metal real good to degrease it. Gotta pull the lock and do the same.
2) I will need to file\touch up\polish every piece of metal in the kit.
3) Gotta play with that set screw (replace it?) on the set trigger but otherwise the trigger feels decent. I wonder if the metal is any good to stone it and square up the mating surfaces? :hmm: Maybe a replacement trigger group on the horizon.
4) Stock could have some grain to show off.
5) I need to figure out if I can take some of the curve outa the toe of the buttstock. Sorry, forget about tradition\true to the original design ... it's a shooter and I am not gonna alter 30some years of ingrained technique for one rifle. Never mind shooting it, it bites me when I shoulder it.... :surrender: :surrender:
6) That flask that I got - :thumbsup: - not some weak flapping gate.... 3/8" dia brass rod with a strong spring on it. ~1/4 thru hole for the powder and a set screw to keep it in place (might worry about the set screw). Seperate adjustale measure goes up to ~30-150 grains and supposed to be regulated for 2F. Fits into the mouth of the flask.... Just what I thought it was....probably hold about 700 grains of powder.
7) The flint (only one) just ain't gonna work :cursing: :nono: :cursing: :shake: :cursing: :nono: :shake: :cursing: :cursing: :cursing: It's beveled on both ends and when set to barely clear the frizzen at halfcock the holder almost pinches the edge of the bevel - not quite 1/8" of flat in the jaws :shocked2: . The flat on the flint measured 9/16" square... I'm sure I can come up with something to allow me to use it 'til it's dead, but would prefer to get the right size first thing. Strip of vinyl instead of leather too. :shake:
8) Looks like the oil that was on the lock and other metal for shipping has absorbed into the stock a bit at the rear of the lock. :cursing: :cursing: may need to try to do something here, maybe leave it sit in corn starch for a bit?
9) I rough fit it all together and the weight and balance of the .54 is nice... :grin:

So my over all first impression is a ~C+ - It's about what I expected, but was hoping to be pleasantly surprised. I have something to work with though.

 

[Fishhog]

Ref,remember it is a kit! LOL..Try some denatured alky on a patch to wet it good then some dry ones to absorb the oil up before it dries.Couple of times should absorb it.Keep the progress coming .Ray

 

[BadHorse]

It's heeeeer! :applause: :grin:

So first impressions:
1) It's "oily" - gonna need to scrub the metal real good to degrease it. Gotta pull the lock and do the same.
2) I will need to file\touch up\polish every piece of metal in the kit.
3) Gotta play with that set screw (replace it?) on the set trigger but otherwise the trigger feels decent. I wonder if the metal is any good to stone it and square up the mating surfaces? :hmm: Maybe a replacement trigger group on the horizon.
4) Stock could have some grain to show off.
5) I need to figure out if I can take some of the curve outa the toe of the buttstock. Sorry, forget about tradition\true to the original design ... it's a shooter and I am not gonna alter 30some years of ingrained technique for one rifle. Never mind shooting it, it bites me when I shoulder it.... :surrender: :surrender:
6) That flask that I got - :thumbsup: - not some weak flapping gate.... 3/8" dia brass rod with a strong spring on it. ~1/4 thru hole for the powder and a set screw to keep it in place (might worry about the set screw). Seperate adjustale measure goes up to ~30-150 grains and supposed to be regulated for 2F. Fits into the mouth of the flask.... Just what I thought it was....probably hold about 700 grains of powder.
7) The flint (only one) just ain't gonna work :cursing: :nono: :cursing: :shake: :cursing: :nono: :shake: :cursing: :cursing: :cursing: It's beveled on both ends and when set to barely clear the frizzen at halfcock the holder almost pinches the edge of the bevel - not quite 1/8" of flat in the jaws :shocked2: . The flat on the flint measured 9/16" square... I'm sure I can come up with something to allow me to use it 'til it's dead, but would prefer to get the right size first thing. Strip of vinyl instead of leather too. :shake:
8) Looks like the oil that was on the lock and other metal for shipping has absorbed into the stock a bit at the rear of the lock. :cursing: :cursing: may need to try to do something here, maybe leave it sit in corn starch for a bit?
9) I rough fit it all together and the weight and balance of the .54 is nice... :grin:

So my over all first impression is a ~C+ - It's about what I expected, but was hoping to be pleasantly surprised. I have something to work with though.

a thought here, i know you say the rifle bites when you shoulder it, but if you build it with the but as is and try learning to shoot it the way it was meant to be shot, and its not hard to learn to shoot "off shoulder". whats th eworst that happens? you change your mind, and then modify the butt and buttplate. when you do shoot it "off shoulder" its comfortable and seems like the most natural thing in the world. and that flint they give you, well i put mine in bevel down, and i got alot of shots with that flint! i'm guessing i got 100+ shots with it. its a good flint. they say use a 5/8th flint, but i keep putting 3/4's in mine and they work fine. so have fun with it take your time, and dont commit yourself to decisions on the rifle, let it talk to you about what it wants. it will make sense as you go.

ps get that elbow up when you shoulder it! and put that toe in the armpit. trust me it wont hurt

 

[mykeal]

Yeah, it's a kit. You were expecting a finished gun?

1) It's "oily" - gonna need to scrub the metal real good to degrease it. Gotta pull the lock and do the same.

It's a new gun. They all come that way.

2) I will need to file\touch up\polish every piece of metal in the kit.

It's a kit. Yes, you have to finish the parts.

3) Gotta play with that set screw (replace it?) on the set trigger but otherwise the trigger feels decent. I wonder if the metal is any good to stone it and square up the mating surfaces? :hmm: Maybe a replacement trigger group on the horizon.

The screw is a M2.5x0.45, 8mm long. Most GPR users try to replace it with a longer one; it may be necessary to buy one that's too long and cut it to the length you want. Stoning is possible, but I'd put a hundred rounds or so through it before I started to change it. It might actually work. You will find the barrel needs 50 to 100 rounds before it starts to shoot well; the action won't be hurt by doing the same thing.

4) Stock could have some grain to show off.

That's up to you to bring out with your finishing technique. It's an open grain walnut, so filler and whiskering are in your future.

5) I need to figure out if I can take some of the curve outa the toe of the buttstock. Sorry, forget about tradition\true to the original design ... it's a shooter and I am not gonna alter 30some years of ingrained technique for one rifle. Never mind shooting it, it bites me when I shoulder it....

Wow. It's a curved buttstock rifle. They are intended to be held at the arm/shoulder joint. It's not all that difficult to do. Modifying the butt to shoot off the shoulder may require more cast off than is in the stock.

6) That flask that I got - :thumbsup: - not some weak flapping gate.... 3/8" dia brass rod with a strong spring on it. ~1/4 thru hole for the powder and a set screw to keep it in place (might worry about the set screw). Seperate adjustale measure goes up to ~30-150 grains and supposed to be regulated for 2F. Fits into the mouth of the flask.... Just what I thought it was....probably hold about 700 grains of powder.

Good stuff.

7) The flint (only one) just ain't gonna work ... It's beveled on both ends and when set to barely clear the frizzen at halfcock the holder almost pinches the edge of the bevel - not quite 1/8" of flat in the jaws :shocked2: . The flat on the flint measured 9/16" square... I'm sure I can come up with something to allow me to use it 'til it's dead, but would prefer to get the right size first thing. Strip of vinyl instead of leather too.

Yep. Get Ted Fuller english or forum member Rich Pierce's flints

8) Looks like the oil that was on the lock and other metal for shipping has absorbed into the stock a bit at the rear of the lock. .. may need to try to do something here, maybe leave it sit in corn starch for a bit?

It's not deep. Sanding the wood to smooth it for finishing will remove it.

9) I rough fit it all together and the weight and balance of the .54 is nice... :grin:

More good stuff. Wait until you shoot it.

So my over all first impression is a ~C+ - It's about what I expected, but was hoping to be pleasantly surprised. I have something to work with though.

What would have 'pleasantly surprised' you?

 

[hockeyref]

[

Yeah, it's a kit. You were expecting a finished gun?

Maybe just a little better quality of some of the metal components....

2) I will need to file\touch up\polish every piece of metal in the kit.

It's a kit. Yes, you have to finish the parts.

See above answer - and yes, I know it's a kit.....

5) I need to figure out if I can take some of the curve outa the toe of the buttstock. Sorry, forget about tradition\true to the original design ... it's a shooter and I am not gonna alter 30some years of ingrained technique for one rifle. Never mind shooting it, it bites me when I shoulder it....

Wow. It's a curved buttstock rifle. They are intended to be held at the arm/shoulder joint. It's not all that difficult to do. Modifying the butt to shoot off the shoulder may require more cast off than is in the stock.

This one is well argued in a post purely about the curved butt stock and it comes down to whether I want to be PC, or comfortable. I shoot about 5k rounds of shotgun, and another 5k of modern rifle per year. The mount is ingrained and I am of the school of thought that you don't want to shoot anything off your bicep if you want to be consistently accurate with it. Now will I try it as designed first? Probably...

So my over all first impression is a ~C+ - It's about what I expected, but was hoping to be pleasantly surprised. I have something to work with though.

What would have 'pleasantly surprised' you?

Like I said..... better quality on some of the metal parts and maybe a real "WOW" piece of wood. I kinda wonder what the kits were like 15 or 20 years ago.... the ones that I remember were not quite so.... rough. All in all, I've done projects that have given me less to work with and lots more work to get them done....


It's gonna be fun... Hope I remember to take pics...

 

[mykeal]

First of all, apologies for my earlier tone. I did not intend for it to be so harsh, so if I offended, I'm sorry for that.

I did some CVA kits in the late 70's and early 80's; I still have the guns and can state pretty firmly that the wood was not very exciting. I didn't really know better back then and just did my best to bring out whatever character there was - not much. The other thing I note is that today's custom gun makers offer three or four optional (at extra cost) wood upgrades; this leads me to believe the 'standard' wood in those offerings will be pretty much like what I got back in the day - plain to extra plain. I will say that the stock on my GPR kit was really pretty nice wood, much better than I expected from my experience.

As for the metal parts - the parts in those CVA kits were rough cast and needed a great deal of sanding and polishing. That was the most time and labor consuming part of the whole process. I'd be surprised to see anything different today. The metal parts in my GPR kit were not as bad as those old CVA parts, but they were pretty rough and took quite a bit of work.

So, I guess expectations are everything. My experience would not have left me as disappointed as you were.

Good luck and have fun with your kit. Here are links to my threads on the assembly of my GPR:
First thread
Second thread
Ready to stain
Stain results
Starting barrel
Final results

Please show us pics of your progress; use the Gun Builder's Bench subforum.

 

[BrianU]

Very nice rifle and excellent job posting the progress. You are definately a man of skill and patience. Like many others here, I have been wanting to build my own rifle for awhile, but was not sure where to start. From what I have seen, the GPR looks like a nice kit, however the position of the touchhole does concern me. Someone else posted that their's was in the exact same location. Do you know if this is something common to all these rifles?

Brian

 

[BadHorse]

Very nice rifle and excellent job posting the progress. You are definately a man of skill and patience. Like many others here, I have been wanting to build my own rifle for awhile, but was not sure where to start. From what I have seen, the GPR looks like a nice kit, however the position of the touchhole does concern me. Someone else posted that their's was in the exact same location. Do you know if this is something common to all these rifles?

Brian

on mine i rebent the tang and the touch hole moved back in place Voila! done. turns out that the geometry of the hoked breach and the angle of the tange are wrong moving the touch hole. the GPR is a great way to get your feet wet building guns.

 

[mykeal]

I don't know if it's common to all the kits; it's certainly not too unusual. Frankly, I was quite pleased with the number of problems I didn't have to solve.

 

[hockeyref]

First of all, apologies for my earlier tone. I did not intend for it to be so harsh, so if I offended, I'm sorry for that.

I did some CVA kits in the late 70's and early 80's; I still have the guns and can state pretty firmly that the wood was not very exciting. I didn't really know better back then and just did my best to bring out whatever character there was - not much. The other thing I note is that today's custom gun makers offer three or four optional (at extra cost) wood upgrades; this leads me to believe the 'standard' wood in those offerings will be pretty much like what I got back in the day - plain to extra plain. I will say that the stock on my GPR kit was really pretty nice wood, much better than I expected from my experience.

As for the metal parts - the parts in those CVA kits were rough cast and needed a great deal of sanding and polishing. That was the most time and labor consuming part of the whole process. I'd be surprised to see anything different today. The metal parts in my GPR kit were not as bad as those old CVA parts, but they were pretty rough and took quite a bit of work.

So, I guess expectations are everything. My experience would not have left me as disappointed as you were.

Good luck and have fun with your kit. Here are links to my threads on the assembly of my GPR:
First thread
Second thread
Ready to stain
Stain results
Starting barrel
Final results

Please show us pics of your progress; use the Gun Builder's Bench subforum.

Mykeal,
I'm a referee..... I don't get upset too easy at harsh words.... :shocked2: Wouldn't last too long if I did. Besides, nothing harsh in your comments, just smarta$$ - like me :wink:

The kit wasn't too far from what I expected - really. I've said before that I don't have any qualms about making something or modifying as I see fit.

So here's the million dollar question, How does the quality of the parts (not the wood) compare to - say - a Chambers kit?

BTW - the box says "Lyman" but some of the internal literature says "Investarms". Definitely the barrel stamped Investarms and Lyman......

 

[BadHorse]

So here's the million dollar question, How does the quality of the parts (not the wood) compare to - say - a Chambers kit?

BTW - the box says "Lyman" but some of the internal literature says "Investarms". Definitely the barrel stamped Investarms and Lyman......

well when you build a chambers, or tip curtis, or any other "high dollar" gun it will be no where as finished as your GPR. the GPR will take 40 hours + or - to build, a real long gun will take 200 hours? but they are soooo worth it!

investarms builds the guns for lyman and a few others, dont get hung up on that

 

[mykeal]

Comparing a Lyman or T/C kit to a Chambers kit just can't be done. They are completely different animals. The Chambers kit will require a great deal more time, effort and skill, and the finished product will be a great deal more valuable.

I think the standard wood in a Chambers kit is comparable to my GPR kit in terms of figure, but of course you have the upgrade options that you don't have with Lyman. I cannot comment on the metal parts.

Lyman does not manufacture the parts in their kits or rifles. They assemble parts they purchase from others. The barrels are made by Investarms in Italy. I recall, probably wrongly, that their wood comes from Pecatonica. I do not know who makes their locks and metal furniture.

 

[hockeyref]

Yep, that's the standard way of mass manufacturing these days... not gonna knock the Italian or Spanish gun manufactures without cause, they do make some pretty fine OU and SxS shotguns over there - just maybe not by InvestArms.

I know that there is a lot mnore work to the high end kits which is why I got the GPR first... Wanted some training wheels before I tried to ride the Harley so to speak.... The reason I specifically asked about the metal parts difference was that I had read the Chambers parts were wax cast and it's been 25 years since I handled any raw parts for a front stuffer.... I have the GPR in hand ~ albeit "iron" vs brass ~ but if somenone has handled both it would give me an idea of what to expect. Also, wonder how different the wax vs sand cast will be... (I suspect ir will be like comparing 50 grit sandpaper to 150 or 250 grit).


Now a question on the build:
I am assuming that I will need to sand\shape\polish the metal parts. (Butt, trigger guard, Toe Cap, the metal plates the wedges go through....) Do I finish these the same as the barrel - IE: I'm gonna do the vinegar treatment Karwelis detailed earlier on the barrel.

Also, I plan to polish up the sights real good and want some sort of deep flat black finish on them. (I want to see them, not caring if the look a little "wrong" looking)... Any suggestions on how to achieve this finish? I remember having a really badly rusted tool years ago and my dad had me soak it is something for a few days. It stopped the rusting and turned it flat black.... might have been naval jelly, might have been white vinegar, I don't remember.

 

[BadHorse]

Now a question on the build:
I am assuming that I will need to sand\shape\polish the metal parts. (Butt, trigger guard, Toe Cap, the metal plates the wedges go through....) Do I finish these the same as the barrel - IE: I'm gonna do the vinegar treatment Karwelis detailed earlier on the barrel.

Also, I plan to polish up the sights real good and want some sort of deep flat black finish on them. (I want to see them, not caring if the look a little "wrong" looking)... Any suggestions on how to achieve this finish? I remember having a really badly rusted tool years ago and my dad had me soak it is something for a few days. It stopped the rusting and turned it flat black.... might have been naval jelly, might have been white vinegar, I don't remember.

its sounds like your looking for rust bluing, on my gpr i cleaned up all the meatal and did the viniger on everything, butt plate, toe plate, trigger guard and rib, and the sites. i used the primitive rear site. when i go shooting i can see clearly.

 

[mykeal]

My opinion, for what it's worth, is that the furniture should receive the same finish as the barrel, especially if it's one of the lighter finishes such as one of the patina 'whites'. The only time I'd appreciate an exception to that is a very dark, rust blued barrel; lighter blued or dark brown or even dark gray will work in that case. In my opinion.

You want to rust blue the sights. Use LMF browning solution per their instructions (the instruction sheet with the solution will explain how). It essentially consists of completing the browning process and then placing the parts in boiling distilled water for some period of time that I can't recall.

 

[hockeyref]

My target rifle background wants to have the sights as dark flat black as possible to be able to see them clearly.... If I do them that way and don't like them it's no big deal to polish and start again... I kinda flipping thoughts and ideas at you guys for feedback and, well, let's see what ends up tickling my fancy when it's all said and done... this gun may just "look great" on the first go around, or it may be one of those....hmm that ain't quite right just yet.

Karwelis,
Since that Vinegar finish is probably what I'll use on the barrel, any chance you have a close up of the barrel and front sight? I know you detailed the process for me on another thread, but did you mention how dark you can make it? A dark black\rust blued sight could look decent on that finish....

Mykeal,
Your stock looks like it could be a sister to mine - very similar right down to the grain on the cheek.... And yes, I will want the stock darker than that....

 

[BadHorse]

i'll take some pics in the morning. one thing you need to keep in mind, it will get darker with time. also you might want my phone # to walk you through parts of this. i can give you more info faster this way. pm me for #