Made in India?

[curator]

Opusnight:

Over the past 40 or so years I have had the pleasure of "repairing" more than a thousand historical replica arms for reenactors and muzzle loading shooters. I have seen just about every quality from absolute junk to better than the originals made in Spain, Italy, Japan, Belgium, Brazil, Packistan, India, etc. Generally (but with noteable exceptions) you get what you pay for. I have had as many as 200 various muskets and pistols in my museum reenactor armory. Several of them were made in India. Specifically, a couple of British Brown Bess muskets, some Baker Rifles, and some English "sea-service" pistols. All were very serviceable and surprising high quality given the price which was less than half of what an Italian replica would cost. Yes, a couple needed a bit of trigger work and I re-hardened a couple of frizzens but often had to do this to high-priced replicas too. The India-made guns appear to be mostly hand made by real crafts men under semi-primitive conditions. They are not perfect but are made with better metals than the originals. I have found them to be a bargain for what mine are used for. Reenactors are kind of hard on guns, particulalry if not their own. The wood on the Indian replicas is Teak and it resists the usual dents and bruises that will scar a Walnut stock.

 

[sc45-70]

With the modifications I made to it , my India fowler works great!

Just pull the chain and the light comes on!

:rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

SC45-70

I bet you really have to pull hard on the chain to turn the light on too.

One of the modifications was to lighted the chain pull! :rotf:

SC45-70

 

[jerrywh]

exactly. but if you buy one you can get it proofed or proof it yourself. I did notice that statement.

 

[tiger13]

With more comments like this, we all wonder why this sport is dieing out? :youcrazy:

 

[opusnight]

Wow - guess I should read through the forum before asking, eh? Thanks for all the advice. I get the impression I should look around for a bargain used before buying from India. Thanks for all the advice, guys!

 

[tg]

You can get much more for your money taking that route, good luck and enjoy the journey.

 

[stormcrow]

With more comments like this, we all wonder why this sport is dieing out? :youcrazy:

Yes, and based at least in part on the fundamentally incorrect assumption that these imports are bad for U.S. makers when in all likelihood just the opposite is true. Similar to a country club that shuns new golfers who don't use a custom set of golf clubs, then eventually wonder why both their new membership enrollment (and sales of custom clubs) continue to plummet. Don't own an Indian gun and probably never will. Will never knock anyone else for buying one though. To each his own.

 

[Rev_William]

With more comments like this, we all wonder why this sport is dieing out? :youcrazy:

Yes, and based at least in part on the fundamentally incorrect assumption that these imports are bad for U.S. makers when in all likelihood just the opposite is true. Similar to a country club that shuns new golfers who don't use a custom set of golf clubs, then eventually wonder why both their new membership enrollment (and sales of custom clubs) continue to plummet. Don't own an Indian gun and probably never will. Will never knock anyone else for buying one though. To each his own.

I'm old enough I remember the same stuff being said about the spanish and italian guns coming out in the 60's and 70's. look where they're at now.

 

[DUSTY 14]

rondy season is coming and the shopping will be lots of fun. get what you can afford in your pocket
IN CASH. if you find a gun in decent shape near your price,make an offer. go to the shows. lots of fun and lots of knowledge to be gained.

 

[tg]

Lots of support for the Indian guns but personaly I would not recommend something that I was not confortable buying for myself for whatever the reason, again I think a lot of support or lack of such can be traced to the overall experience of those on both sides of the fence, I suspect that a connection between experience in the hobby and recomending one of these guns to someone would show a pattern.I just hope that if someone does buy one that they are not dissapointed and feel that they got their moneys worth, it seems that so far this is a split decision based on ones expectations and knowledge about what guns of the period they represent should be like.It is unlikley that anything will change the general position of anyone who has allready formed an opinion on these guns, whatever the opinion may be based on.I like to see folks buy quality guns if they are able so they will have fewer issues to deal with. I also believe that very often used guns are a good way to do so and avoid any of the questionable imports and they must be questionable to some degree or we would not have threads like this :idunno: and either side one finds themselves on there is no reason for hostile attitudes just because someone does not agree with ones position, particularly if the experience, overall knowledge of todays guns offerings of the opposing parties is weighed.

 

[lonehorseman]

or it could explain why fishing is becoming more popular.

Anytime someone asks for an opinion, there is always someone else ready to question that opinion. I just gave my opinion.

I don't have years of xperience with Indian guns like some around here, but the few I have had in my shop were sub-par. I love to fish and I love to shoot muzzleloaders. Given the choice of going fishing or packing around a 12 pound piece of steel and oversized wood, with a floppy hammer I will go fishing every time! Again, it is just my opinion. I don't mean to kill off the sport of muzzleloading or fishing.

 

[tiger13]

There are a few of us on here that have them, and can speak from experience, good and bad. I have owned two of them, and have not had any trouble with either one of them. I bought both of them from MVTC. The first one got stolen in a break in, I bought a replacement for it. It is not historically correct as a third model Bess, but it is what I can afford, and as I have said in the past, I would put it up against any in it's class of musket in a shoot. I have also owned in the past, and still own, CVA, Markwell Arms, Ultra - Hi and others that I am sure are considered junk, but still shoot quite well. And have gotten many people interested in black powder firearms. What some condemn as junk and useless, others still find a use for to get people into this sport without hocking the farm, only to find they don't really like the sport after all.

 

[tg]

I wonder if a footnore to other post on thios subject might be a good idea so as not to continue to open old wounds as the end result is always the same, and the space might be put to better use.With the difference in price around $300 +/= it hardly seems a major issue given how the two types of guns stack up.

 

[tiger13]

I agree, alot of people speak on here of things that sometimes they do not have first hand experience, meaning that they do not actually own, and shoot these guns regularly, but have "friends" or see them come into shops, heard, etc.
Shoot what YOU want, LET OTHERS shoot what they can afford to. give your honest advice from what you KNOW from your experience. if you have never owned one, you don't have a dog in the fight. all you got is hear say, as far as I am concerned. If I was asking someones advice, I would want it from some one that has been there, done that. not, well I got a friend that told, me his first cousin had a friend.... I aint trying to bash people, but some people do not have a bunch of money, and to say..well then "take up fishing" how does that statement benefit our sport? how do we bring new people in when we only try to get them to buy a gun that may cost a lot of money, and then they find they do not like to spend 45 minutes cleaning up after 10 minutes of shooting? Cheap guns have there place, lets not be so fast to put them down all the time, we all need to think about what we are potentially doing to the future of the sport we love when we do it all the time.

 

[ebiggs1]

I can tell you one thing. Some of the 'long timers' on this forum have an agenda to satisfy which gets in the way of the facts. From my own experience form the beginning, I can bear witness to that.
I had to find out the truth for myself. My advice is, if you want one go to a reputable dealer and buy it. Learn it and shoot it and see for yourself.
To be fair, myself, the guys that really like them may overly brag on how wonderful they are, too, so it swings both ways.

 

[tg]

The only problem with that line of thought is that just because someone owns a type of gun it does not mean that they realy know anything about it other than it goes boom regularly or not which often does not tell the whole story ( they may have gotten a good one out of 100 or one that was built on a Friday who knows). Anytime one gets vastly different reports about anything the red flags should go up, if several gun builders have had many of a particular gun into their shop for "fixes" the red flags should go up. Quite often people say just treat them like a kit and re-do them, I cannot go with buying a new gun just to take it apart and start over, I did that once on an "in the white" project which was from a supposedly reputable builder. No one has any reason to put down any gun just for the Hell of it any negative remarks are there for the potential buyer to get more info for their own protection. I have seen lots of guys praise so and so's guns as being the best around and when it comes down to it so and so's are the only type of gun the guys have every even held, I think some are way over defensive of some of the questionable stuff that is around. Mainly because they have some of it and there is a natural need to validate our own choices. There is nothing wrong with planting the seed for finding out as much as possible from experienced builders/shooters when any gun is mentioned. The Indian gun topic comes up so often that I just think there should be a place folks can read all that has been said bothways without having to start the feud all over for the umpteenth time. Personaly just looking at them and reading the "historic" writeups was enough for me to decide whether I was interested or not,what others do is their buisness, I just hope they get as much valid information as possible so they can make an intelligent choice depending on what their needs are and as many pages that must be in the archives now do we need to repeat them all again and again considering the genral tone the threads take? This one has been mild compared to many in the past. Many topics are like this to some extent but this one is about the most often one we see posted. I hope those who have them have good luck and no problems, and those who will buy them in the future do a lot of studying and thinking about it, but all to often the price tag will over rule nearly any questionable facts or ideas about something. There are so many good deals on well made used guns out there I hope some will take advantage of this market. I have picked up a half dozen top name complete guns for less than the cost of the parts. I really do not see these guns as a beginners first gun which will determimne whether they like the sport or not, there are lots of even cheaper used guns for that niche if the buyer has much common sense and these gun will likley hold their value should the buyer not like to spend so much time cleaning...I think I would take up fishing if it took me 45 minutes to clean a ML. Anyway here's to hoping that folks will make choices that they will not come to regret.

 

[lonehorseman]

t.g., thanks for your voice of reason, and well-thought logic.

I think I will permanently avoid THIS thread, both now and in the future!

If anyone needs me I will be over on The Fishing Forum, starting trouble over imported spinnerbaits.........

 

[nmdd]

Jeez, if you catch one of those nasty thangs then you have to clean it... :barf:

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Experiences differ this is true. I for one know of an idividual on a different forum who did indeed "put down a gun just for the hell of it", as his rhetoric was simply anti-Indian. Anything from that country sucked (paraphrased).

Vastly different reports are true as well, but that seems to infer that all of the Indian imports are from the same maker or parts supplier, simply distributed by different importers, akin to the situation with Uberti making revolvers for Navy Arms, Taylor's, and Cimmaron. In fact they do not all come from the same single source in India.

As for gun choices, if one simply wishes to get into black powder guns, there are a pleathora of choices..., and I whole heartedly agree that there are better choices new or used than an Indian Bess musket..., for sending patched round ball downrange.

This is not true for all persons within this pastime, AND we should remember that the folks who do the most promoting of our pasttime to the public, the ones who reach the most folks in a positive way, are the folks doing living history. There are not huge groups of tourists watching treks, or target shoots, or even rondezvous, but they do show up at historic sites and battle reenactments. The vast majority of folks who have seen a flintlock fire in person have done so at a military reenactment.

It behooves us then, to understand that those same tourists vote for the funding that preserves our sites, our national forests, and for the continued ownership and use of arms.

Thus there is a large portion of our community where an individual is often looking for more than patched round ball launch platform. A correct replica for a historic situation is needed, and many don't ever shoot them "live". So, the 1st Model, King's musket is the correct version, it is necessary, for the vast majority of folks performing living history in the AWI who represent folks who carried the Bess, and is 100% what is required for folks who do F&I representing a British subject.

No matter how beautiful the wood, or the metal to wood fit, the Pedersoli 2nd Model Bess is wrong. Period. (Their carbine is more wrong, and their Indian trade gun is tremendously incorrect.) The Pedersoli Second Model "Bess" was used for three of the last four decades by miltiary reenactors, who own the majority of them in the United States, not because it was excellent, but because it was all there was available over-the-counter. Japanese copies of it were poo-poo'd during the entire time they were manufactured..., Japanese barrels do not carry the mark of a CIP proof house as do the Italian guns. A primary objection to a "Jap Bess" back in the day.

Currently the SRP for the Pedersoli gun is $1480.00 including the bayonet (which is also necessary for the vast majority of living history persons doing a soldier). That's 2x the cost of an Indian gun. The argument that "there is a need to validate our own choices" can equally be applied to Pedersoli aficionados. Tell somebody they paid too much for the wrong gun, and sometimes they get hostile. :shocked2:

So we enter the world of "There are so many good deals on well made guns out there...." which is very true. The guns may hold their value longer, or they may be found quite inexpensive, and work very well...., if all that you are doing is shooting, or hunting, and possibly doing living some history. (We cannot all play Continental Riflemen) :wink: I, myself, have benefitted from this on several occasions. My current long rifle was bought used. :grin:

Yet, the term "good deal" is quite subjective. I would submit that a person who cannot affort $900.00 for a gun doesn't simply change their economic situation when it's revealed that the gun is a rifle that today would go for $2500.00. Truly a bargain, but equally out of the reach regardless of the "sale price" or "used price".

When it comes to the Bess, there is not a plethora of used Pedersoli, or Japanese, brown besses just waiting to be snatched up. I checked today on the two largest gun auction sites..., there is a single, "NIB" Pedersoli bess (without the $180.00 bayonet) available for $900.00. On the largest of the Revolutionary War forums, for the past fourteen months, there have been less than 1 dozen used Pedersoli 2nd models offered for sale. So unless one is making the argument that the military folks, nationwide, increase or replace their membership by only a dozen or so soldiers a year..., there is a need for an "afforable bess".

I own both, Pedersoli and Loyalist Arms muskets, as well as other Pedersoli Guns. My first Loyalist Arms Bess I didn't like, and I sold it, and bought a different model. I have compared the hardware on the new musket, and it looks like the photographs found in the book "A Soldier-Like Way", The Material Culture of the British Infantry 1751-1768" by R. R. Gale.

The Pedersoli products that I own are well made, dependable, good shooting, and harvest game. The 2nd Model King's Musket is not in my opinion, worth 2x the SRP of some of the Indian muskets, especially for the folks who do nothing more than fire blanks, let alone for folks who sometimes fire round ball.

LD

 

[Robert Egler]

Yet, the term "good deal" is quite subjective. I would submit that a person who cannot affort $900.00 for a gun doesn't simply change their economic situation when it's revealed that the gun is a rifle that today would go for $2500.00. Truly a bargain, but equally out of the reach regardless of the "sale price" or "used price".

Absolutely true! If you can't afford to spend $900, or $1000, or whatever on a gun, you STILL can't afford to spend $900 or $1000 or whatever even if the gun would be three times that new.

The other thing you hear is "save your money so you can get a good gun". If someone's becomes interested in muzzleloading he will want to get into it fairly quickly, not many people will continue to be interested in starting a hobby when they have to wait two years or something saving money before they can get started.

I teach astronomy, and I get asked by people all the time about what telescope to get when they become interested in amateur astronomy. Someone 'serious' about amateur astronomy will have a telescope in the $1500 - $3000 and up range. I had a $4000 telescope until a couple years ago when I sold it. Some amateurs have custom telescopes $10,000, $12,000, and more. But I never recommend that kind of telescope to people just getting into the hobby. I recommend a couple of options in the $200-$500 range as starter scopes. Someone 'serious' about the hobby would not usually use one of these, but if I never recommended scopes I personally wouldn't use now that I know about telescopes very, very few of the people starting to be interested would ever buy any telescope and never get started at all.