Mailing BP revolvers

[SDSmlf]

I did post the links to the actual USPS regulations in post #36 above.
You conveniently left out the rest of the USPS definition of a firearm.
It's very clear in black & white that antique handguns ARE NOT EXEMPT from being classified as firearms by the USPS.

I did not see your post #36 before I posted my response, I was doing a proof read (I posted a few minutes after you posted) and did not notice it.

I did not conveniently leave anything off my definition of a firearm, I quoted the directly from the USPS website and provided a link. Policies, Procedures, and Forms Updates Appears maybe the USPS may have though, as 431.1.a that you referenced ( 43 Firearms | Postal Explorer ) conveniently adds the statement except antique firearms meeting the description of a handgun or of a firearm capable of being concealed on a person that is not on the USPS website document that I referenced. Please read both and compare. And no point going back to the ShippingEasy Support Center referenced earlier in my opinion. I wonder how Fred Gailey would have made out in Kris’ case quoting this USPS?

 

[arcticap]

I did not see your post #36 before I posted my response, I was doing a proof read (I posted a few minutes after you posted) and did not notice it.

I did not conveniently leave anything off my definition of a firearm, I quoted the directly from the USPS website and provided a link. Policies, Procedures, and Forms Updates Appears maybe the USPS may have though, as 431.1.a that you referenced ( 43 Firearms | Postal Explorer ) conveniently adds the statement except antique firearms meeting the description of a handgun or of a firearm capable of being concealed on a person that is not on the USPS website document that I referenced. Please read both and compare. And no point going back to the ShippingEasy Support Center referenced earlier in my opinion. I wonder how Fred Gailey would have made out in Kris’ case quoting this USPS?

I understand how folks can cross post and I apologize for using the word convenient and for going on about it.
Your link is from a USPS Bulletin dated November 7, 2011 which must have expired as it became outdated which can happen to anyone. --->>> Policies, Procedures, and Forms Updates

The link that I used is a current one directly from the USPS.com website.
My information came from USPS Publication 52 that's dated April 20, 2020 and titled "Publication 52, Hazardous, Restricted, and Perishable Mail".

The index for it came up in Google search results for info. about "usps regulations shipping muzzle loaders" that I clicked on.
And going back to my Google search results page, I now see that the 2011 Bulletin was listed first in the same results that I was given.
My reference is probably an updated manual that Postal employees would use if they were looking for the answer to any questions about shipping regulations.
The link to the firearms reg's were found to be listed under 4 Restricted Matter, 43 Firearms in the Publication 52 index. --->>> Publication 52, Hazardous, Restricted, and Perishable Mail | Postal Explorer

Thanks for explaining.
We're all learning together.

 

[SDSmlf]

The link that I used is a current one directly from the USPS.com website.

I can see that now. I was on ‘about.usps.com’ instead of ‘pe.usps.com’...... so which one is the real USPS website? Maybe outdated, but saw current links and updates on the ‘about.usps.com’ website. So I guess anything on ‘####.usps.com’ is just a guideline or something like that. Wonder where the actual regulations and laws that would hold up in court are kept? Back to my comment about barrister Fred Gailey and his case with Kris, wonder how he would fare trying to cite facts about the USPS today?

 

[hawkeye2]

"barrister Fred Gailey and his case with Kris, wonder how he would fare trying to cite facts about the USPS today?"

Can you enlighten us without derailing the thread?

 

[jonathan butcher]

I couldn't agree more.

You should have made an official complaint. She was wrong delaying the mail and commerce. The Postmaster General does not like that. She would then get remedial training to know her job.

When the USPS employee takes the paycheck and benefits they should know their job and their rules.

 

[Zonie]

Arcticap:
The regulations you linked to in post #36 are interesting but I'm not sure they apply to all postal services. Reading thru the introduction to the information you linked I see this:
----------------------
"111 General
The purpose of this publication is to provide information and guidance when mailing potentially hazardous, restricted, or perishable matter to domestic and international destinations.

Certain potentially undesirable, harmful, or dangerous matter is nonmailable by statute or regulation. The standards for nonmailable articles and substances and the special conditions under which some of these articles and substances may be mailed can be found in this publication.

These regulations apply to the military postal system, its employees, and undelivered mail that is or has been in the official custody of this system and its employees.

The regulations for nonmailable matter in written, printed, or graphic form are covered in DMM 601.8.0, 508.9.0, and 508.10.0."
------------------------
Notice the words, "These regulations apply to the military postal system...." in the third paragraph.

Does that mean the regulations do not apply to "non-military postal system"? Perhaps that is why antique firearms seem to be mailable by citizens in some information but need special treatment in this set of regulations.

 

[jonathan butcher]

Has anyone hear of Premium Tracking, a upgrade the USPS is offering ?

 

[arcticap]

Arcticap:
The regulations you linked to in post #36 are interesting but I'm not sure they apply to all postal services. Reading thru the introduction to the information you linked I see this:
----------------------
"111 General
The purpose of this publication is to provide information and guidance when mailing potentially hazardous, restricted, or perishable matter to domestic and international destinations.

Certain potentially undesirable, harmful, or dangerous matter is nonmailable by statute or regulation. The standards for nonmailable articles and substances and the special conditions under which some of these articles and substances may be mailed can be found in this publication.

These regulations apply to the military postal system, its employees, and undelivered mail that is or has been in the official custody of this system and its employees.

The regulations for nonmailable matter in written, printed, or graphic form are covered in DMM 601.8.0, 508.9.0, and 508.10.0."
------------------------
Notice the words, "These regulations apply to the military postal system...." in the third paragraph.

Does that mean the regulations do not apply to "non-military postal system"? Perhaps that is why antique firearms seem to be mailable by citizens in some information but need special treatment in this set of regulations.

Zonie, Can you please provide a URL link to the page that you're quoting as a reference?
I don't see and can't find a reference to publication 52 stating that it pertains to military mail.

In post #42, I posted an index page link for Publication 52: --->>> Publication 52, Hazardous, Restricted, and Perishable Mail | Postal Explorer

In the left hand column of the page it says "general guidelines" which when I click on it [below], there's no mention of military mail. --->>> 2 General Guidelines | Postal Explorer

2 General Guidelines
21 Mailability
211 General
Under 18 U.S.C. 1716, all matter that is outwardly or of its own force dangerous or injurious to life, health, or property is nonmailable. The knowing deposit of such matter in the mail is a crime punishable by fine, imprisonment, and/or other penalty.

For reasons of safety, most hazardous materials are nonmailable. However, some hazardous materials and otherwise restricted matter, or perishable matter are permitted to be mailed when the requirements in this publication are fully met.

Chapter 3, Appendix A, and Appendix C of this publication provide detailed information about hazardous materials that are permitted to be mailed and the conditions that apply.

Chapters 4 and 5 of this publication provide information about restricted matter and perishable matter that either is nonmailable or that may be mailable under specified conditions, as applicable..................

==========================================================

I explained how I arrived at the Firearms Reg's that are in post #36 directly from the Publication 52 index page. Please tell me where the military postal service is mentioned as the primary focus of Publication 52 and the Firearm Reg's that it contains.
I need to be able to find and see the page that you are reading to see how it applies to Publication 52, and any other reg's that may apply to USPS domestic mail restrictions.
I hope that you understand that I can't find the page that you've quoted, and how you got there from the links that I posted in post #36.

When I had first heard about USPS shipping changes it was by word of mouth sometime after the Sandy Hook shootings.
I'm not sure if I had ever even looked up the official USPS Reg's since then.
Because shipping revolvers always used to be permitted, I was skeptical about whether the word of mouth info. regarding USPS shipping changes was accurate.
So in trying to find the applicable reg's, my posts in this thread was in an effort to try to locate them.

 

[BallBoy]

Has anyone hear of Premium Tracking, a upgrade the USPS is offering ?

In my understanding the receiver can purchase or upgrade their package tracking detail as listed by USPS plus more than what I copied from the USPS below. Here’s a link to the article
https://faq.usps.com/s/article/USPS-Premium-Tracking-The-Basics#description~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

By purchasing this service, you will have access to your online tracking history for up to ten years. Along with the extended access, your Premium Tracking Statement may be used as:

• USPS evidence of delivery to resolve disputes and claims
• Critical evidence of mailing and or delivery / delivery attempt for legal and court proceedings
• Official authentic source of data that legal and financial sources may accept

 

[arcticap]

Arcticap:
The regulations you linked to in post #36 are interesting but I'm not sure they apply to all postal services. Read
Notice the words, "These regulations apply to the military postal system...." in the third paragraph.....

....Does that mean the regulations do not apply to "non-military postal system"? Perhaps that is why antique firearms seem to be mailable by citizens in some information but need special treatment in this set of regulations.

Okay Zonie, I've now found the intro pages that you quoted.
1. --->>> 1 Introduction | Postal Explorer
2. --->>> 112 Use | Postal Explorer

While I don't have a clue as to the official answer to your question, I would speculate that if the military mail is being sent domestically, then the same rules that apply to the general public also apply to Defense Dept. employees.

There are special rules for military packages being sent overseas, depending on the country
However, the USPS website provides the instructions below to follow US Domestic Restriction Policies if mailing to the US.

Sending to the U.S. Department of Defense employees sending packages to the U.S. from APO/FPO locations using Click-N-Ship may also use USPS Retail Ground®. When shipping to the U.S., follow U.S. domestic restriction policies. --->>> Military & Diplomatic Mail | USPS

That points to the basic mailing restrictions as being the same for all domestic mail being shipped by all citizens of the US, whether military or civilian.
Everyone follows the same basic domestic rules unless someone is shipping out of the country where special military or national import-export rules may apply.
Thank you for finding the info. about Publication 52 being about the military mail system.
However, that doesn't mean that these rules exclusively pertain to military mail.

I wanted to add that the fact that Publication 52 also applies to the military mail doesn't mean that Publication 52 aren't also the domestic rules.
It could simply be a statement that these rules also have jurisdiction over the military mail system in addition to the domestic mail system that all Americans use.
Why would the USPS have 2 sets of identical domestic shipping reg's?
The military branches may have their own rules, but not necessarily the USPS.
-------------------
Under Use is states:

112 Use
This publication is designed for use by mailers and for employees in business mail entry, retail units, marketing, and other functional areas that are involved with providing mailability information to Postal Service customers.

Follow the standards contained in this publication when deciding whether and under what conditions hazardous materials, restricted matter, and perishable matter are permitted to be mailed.

The content of this publication is based on former DMM standards which have been incorporated into this publication, as well as regulations of federal agencies in effect at the time of publication. Future changes to the federal regulations may supplement, amend, or supersede the content of this publication.
----------------------------------------
While the rules may apply to the DMM military system, it doesn't mean that the rules are exclusively for the military.
Rather that the rules include or incorporate the military mail system, but may not be exclusive to it.
If there's another set of USPS shipping reg's. then I would like to know where they're located.
There's only one statement that mentions the military, and I think that's because these rules are probably written by lawyers for legal purposes.
In this case to cover the military aspect of USPS policies.

 

[arcticap]

The single statement is:

" These regulations apply to the military postal system, its employees, and undelivered mail that is or has been in the official custody of this system and its employees. "

That sounds like some sort of boilerplate legalese, nothing about it says that these rules are exclusive to the military.
Only that the same domestic mailing restrictions apply to the military when mailing domestically.

If anyone finds another set of reg's then please let use know.
Possible but highly unlikely IMHO.

 

[FishDFly]

arcticap/Zonie,

After 3 pages, could we get a Cliff notes version on shipping BP pistols via USPS, yes or no?

Thanks for your efforts to keep us out of trouble.

 

[arcticap]

I Googled "usps U.S. domestic restriction policies" and the first result brings up a USPS page with the heading:

Domestic Shipping Prohibitions & Restrictions --->>> Shipping Restrictions - What Can You Send in the Mail? | USPS

That page specifically refers the USPS consumer to Publication 52:

What you may ship domestically is regulated by U.S. and USPS® guidelines. Here, you’ll find important tips and information on items that are prohibited (completely forbidden) and restricted (only allowed under certain conditions). If you think your item may be prohibited or restricted or have more questions, see full explanations in USPS Publication 52, Hazardous, Restricted, & Perishable Mail.

The fact that Publication 52 also applies to the military mail system is simply boilerplate, meaning that the regulations are not exclusive to the military mail system, only that the regulations also apply to it.

Pulication 52 appears to be the only source for USPS domestic shipping regulations.

 

[Griz44Mag]

Machine tool parts is a great response to UPS's question of what's in the box.

You are not breaking any laws or rules shipping these.
What you will do is lose the insurance claim if the package gets lost or stolen by falsely declaring the actual content.
Advising someone to lie about a legal activity is bad advice.
If you are going to ship UPS - declare the contents, insure to market value and quit being paranoid.

 

[Griz44Mag]

Machine tool parts is a great response to UPS's question of what's in the box.

No - it's not. It's VERY BAD advice.
I owned and ran a small gun shop for more than a dozen years before retiring.
My BATFE agent that inspected my books asked me why I was logging black powder guns, that it was not required and caused too much clutter in the logs. She asked me to stop doing that.
USPS DOES NOT CARE what you are shipping as long as it is not on the prohibited list. The statement you agree to on the shipping fees does not ask.
UPS WILL void any insurance claim for shipped items that are deliberately mislabeled. Once again, you are not breaking any laws or rules by telling the truth, except for the lie you tell about the contents - and that's a good way to lose the gun and the claim if it goes missing.

 

[Rudyard]

This very interesting thread seems mostly domestic USA maybe Canada but will UPS Or Fedex deliver to a US address same items only long guns from the UK or Europe ? .UK post used to do but the usual anti gun paranoia took over . Rudyard

 

[Griz44Mag]

This very interesting thread seems mostly domestic USA maybe Canada but will UPS Or Fedex deliver to a US address same items only long guns from the UK or Europe ? .UK post used to do but the usual anti gun paranoia took over . Rudyard

If you buy insurance on the contents - the actual contents must be declared. If declared falsely, your insurance will be voided.
I do not use FEDEX, so I do not know about them. UPS has no issues shipping handguns or long guns. If it is a BATFE regulated item, it must be shipped to an FFL. There are no restrictions on black powder guns. (Other than NOT shipping powder or caps with the gun. Lead balls are OK)

 

[arcticap]

If you buy insurance on the contents - the actual contents must be declared. If declared falsely, your insurance will be voided.
I do not use FEDEX, so I do not know about them. UPS has no issues shipping handguns or long guns. If it is a BATFE regulated item, it must be shipped to an FFL. There are no restrictions on black powder guns. (Other than NOT shipping powder or caps with the gun. Lead balls are OK)

The last time that I used Fedex they still weren't asking to declare what's in the box.
That's simply been their longstanding corporate policy and the Fedex store here is corporate.
But like UPS, they allow shipping of BP guns.
The Fedex form only asks how much insurance coverage that you want for the package.

 

[Rudyard]

And this and applies from the UK to the US ? Well that seems fine. unless its nitro but all BP Mls are fine ? good to hear some sense prevails . Regards Rudyard

 

[bubba.50]

Has anyone had experience mailing/ups BP revokvers? I just bought 2 and want to mail them home. Does UPS HAVE any issues mailing it from me to me.

USPS flat rate boxes are your friend.