Main charge question

[MrMackc]

I'm at 75 grains: .54

I was taught by an "oldtimer Hawken .50 cal. hunter" to start out with a load of around 60 grains of FF, and shoot over snow or a white sheet streached out in front of the muzzle and each shot add powder with each loading until you see unburned black powder on the sheet. then back down to the loading that don't leave unburned powder, he said you also should hear a Crack! when you get to the best load, instead of a thud. for my CVA Hawken the best hunting load was 90 grains of GOEX on the .490 pillow ticked round lead ball. It gave a good accutate load out to around 100 yards. For targets I cut back to 60 grains. If I remember correctly shooting at 50 yards targets the impact point was about the same as the heavy load shot at 100 yards.

 

[GrandLakeHunter]

I have used 120 gr. of 3fg in my JBMR .54 calibre for moose backed with wasp or hornets nest. My rifle is proofed to 150 3fg powder btw! I use 40 gr for targets as they don't get aggressive!!

I thought proof loads were way more that 25% over hunting loads? Maybe I'm thinking modern gun proofing ????

 

[Tom A Hawk]

I shoot heavy loads in my .54 Hawkins and enjoy the very flat trajectory and down range energy. Accuracy is excellent. Here is 125 Grains 2F Swiss at 100 yards.

 

[pmccoywss]

My GRRW Hawken had best groups at 90gr 2f, and again at 120 gr 2F. Lower load was my target load, and 120 gr was my hunting load.

The 120gr load gave me almost 2100fps with 180gr RB (about the same as older smokeless rifles).

 

[spottedhorse]

This post seems to have gathered quite the attention - So why not add to the fun - These loads are something I have used with multiple rifles over many years and although each rifle has its particular quirks (5-10gr up or down and thickness of patch) the loads all have gravitated to the general list below
.32 - 35gr fff 310 soft lead 50yds
.45 - long barrel 80gr fff 440 soft lead 100yds
.45 - short barrel 85gr fff same as above
.50 - long barrel 90 gr ff 520 soft lead 100yds
.50 - short barrel 100 gr ff same as above
.54 - long barrel 100gr ff 530 soft lead 100yds
These loads are all Goex and have been the best for accuracy so far and seem to have maintained reliability and accuracy over many years. I have adjusted up and down with each rifle to test and there is a "sweet spot" for each barrel that is right about at each of the loads I have described above. These are both TC and CVA rifles and long barrel is over 28" and short is under 28" the longest is 34" and shortest is 21"
As for the range of animals taken most are less the 100yds but there have been one or two longer shots. As for the results - shots have passed thru mule deer breaking ribs on both sides. So I think they are most adequate.

 

[tenngun]

I was just reading the new Hawkin book and I was blown away by the size of the charges that the author used, 160 gr 2f in 58 cal, 140 grains of 2f in .54 Cal. What are some of you guys using for hunting loads. Right now I’m using 80 and 85 grain 2f in my 50 and 54.

Some of the powder was lower quality. DuPont set up his mill because of lower quality powder he found in America. Hunters often carried powder testers. Small pistols with a spring cover at the end of the chamber. In theory one could test and adjust the charge accordingly.
By Hawken time and tge Western rendezvous period powder was on average pretty fair.
However, even after five centuries if shooting ballistics was in its infancy. The ballistic pendulum had been invented and MV and some down range velocity was known. But this knowledge was largely avalible to ‘eggheads’ and not to the guys in the field building guns or hunting. Most small arm test were carried out shooting pine or oak boards at a given range. Real ballistic tables were largely reserved for artillery.
It stood to reason that if seventy grains went through a deer at a hundred yards then it took a hundred forty grains at two hundred
At 2200 fps a ball will slow to 1100 fps at a hundred yards. And 350 fps at three hundred.
At1100 fps at the muzzle a ball will slow to 800 fps at a hundred yards.and 300 fps at three hundred yards
Of note, Lewis and Clark had jugs made of eight pounds of lead holding four pounds of powder. This is about half gallon size.
If they had the .54 Harpers Ferry that was 110 grain charge and a 220 grain ball. Some of the powder was to prime and there would be spillage so say 100 grain charge.
If they shot the .47-.49 contract rifle this would be around 85 grains to 170 grain ball.

 

[billraby]

I mostly just shoot at paper targets. 80 grains of powder for the 66 caliber works just fine. A little different for the 4 bore rifle. Whole point of that thing is to live out the fantasy of an African safari in the 19th century. So that one usually gets a 450 grain powder charge.

 

[Rodd Boyer]

50 gr of Swiss fffg in my .45 flintlock
70 gr of Swiss fffg in my kibler .54
80 gr of Swiss fffg in my GPR .54

 

[Steve Martin]

You should always try to bear in mind that the quality of the powder available back then compared to the quality and power of powder we use today might explain the difference in charges used. I have mentioned on this forum before that I am not a hunter so I don't pretend to know or offer advice concerning that area of muzzleloading sport however I target shoot at my local range a LOT (once a week) and when shooting at 100 yard targets I can't imagine shooting with such large charges! I get very good accuracy out to that range with FAR less of a charge BUT, I only use 3F powder by Swiss or (these days), Schuetzen. I don't even use more than 85 grains in my .75 caliber Brown Bess!

 

[Josephg]

.58 Hawken. 50 grains. I'm a sissy and so far have only hunted bullseye targets. My buddy Mike used 100 grains in his .54 Hawken. Last year at a match
he told me the breech swelled so he stopped shooting it. Mike shoots a lot. Like two cases of powder a year. Mike told me he shot that load because it was the most accurate. I beat him with my puny 50 grain load.

 

[brazosland]

Three pages into this thread…and I am reminded of an old song lyric…”You can’t rollar-skate in a buffalo herd”

I’d like to know where this author got his information on these charge weights. I find them ridiculous. Wasteful and unnecessary.

We can’t even agree on wether they carried pistols, or what caliber rifles they used, or if the Hawkins built flint rifles before you could even buy percussion caps…but this guy knows they used 140 grain charges?

Barbara Streisand! (Miss you, Rush.)

My .58s and .62s have exited everything I have ever pointed them at including a 1400 pound limousine bull we put down with no more than 95 grains of 3F.

 

[Jake2454]

i may be able to add some relevent information as to the earlier charges.
prior to the civil war powder was not compress.todays powder is greatly compressed under tons of pressure.
having made both compressed and corning it and the "wet" method and then screening it i have measured and increase in powder density of around 25%.
a union artillary officer was charged to find a way to incease the efficiency/range of the cannon.
he came up with compressing the powder which lead to increased power.
so if the source you are reading was referencing pre 1860's loads that might account for the load difference.

 

[brotherlloyd]

I was just reading the new Hawkin book and I was blown away by the size of the charges that the author used, 160 gr 2f in 58 cal, 140 grains of 2f in .54 Cal. What are some of you guys using for hunting loads. Right now I’m using 80 and 85 grain 2f in my 50 and 54.

Hunt with what the rifle likes

 

[tenngun]

Three pages into this thread…and I am reminded of an old song lyric…”You can’t rollar-skate in a buffalo herd”

I’d like to know where this author got his information on these charge weights. I find them ridiculous. Wasteful and unnecessary.

We can’t even agree on wether they carried pistols, or what caliber rifles they used, or if the Hawkins built flint rifles before you could even buy percussion caps…but this guy knows they used 140 grain charges?

Barbara Streisand! (Miss you, Rush.)

My .58s and .62s have exited everything I have ever pointed them at including a 1400 pound limousine bull we put down with no more than 95 grains of 3F.

Kephart mentions shooting a .53 Hawken with 100 and 200 grains, finding the 200 charge had ‘great smashing power’ but had no more recoil-then a .45/70
The British recorded Bess loads at fifty and even twenty five to the pound
I agree that 95 would be more then enough for any animal in North America save I would want a back up for some bears, but we know bigger charges got down bores.

 

[Rock Home Isle]

I was just reading the new Hawkin book and I was blown away by the size of the charges that the author used, 160 gr 2f in 58 cal, 140 grains of 2f in .54 Cal. What are some of you guys using for hunting loads. Right now I’m using 80 and 85 grain 2f in my 50 and 54.

.50 calibre Elk load:

95 grains 2ffg behind a maxi ball. I drill a 1/8th“ hole in the tip to a 1/4” depth

.54 calibre Elk load:

100 grains 2ffg behind a patched round ball
95 grains 2ffg behind a maxi ball with same hollow point technique

 

[Col_Houston]

Based on what I've been readinfg here, I've been way over-powered (over-powdered?) :>). I'm going to try backing down my loads and see how my groups go compared to what I've been using. I'm sure my shoulder will like it.

Good idea! With the cost of powder now, there’s no need to waste it!

 

[waksupi]

Here in the Rockies, many use the heavier loads. We are #5 on the food chain at best, so it's best to have as much power as possible,

 

[Africa58double]

I use 75 gr of 2F Goex in my 58s fir Target and deer out to 80-90 yards.. 280gr Prb or 445gr R.E.A.L bullet .Both are 8-9 Bhn and shoot excellent. I’ll work up a higher charge - to flatten trajectories and for larger game... Yet I’ll still keep that load for normal use.I have Swiss 2F I’ll use for hotter charge. The 75gr Goex hits bullseyes with my double barrel at 80 yards or pretty close with my Tc big bore.

I think most guys shoot to much of a charge… Thinking they need a Canon, Instead of seeking accuracy and learning the trajectory. Just my 2 Sense.

Smoke em if ya got em
Af58X

 

[deerstalkert]

magnumitis is a terrible wasteful condition. my starting loads are equal to the bore dimension. for accuracy i have found that plus 20% usually gives me all i need.

 

[William Lincoln]

I wonder if the Powder quality was different? Today our powder quality is consistent and
good. i can't see over 100 grs and use 75 most hunting loads. Now with costs rising we need
to work up the lightest load that will get the accuracy and effectiveness.