Matchlock pistols?

[Patrick Hemken]

I wont say that I have an endless supply of barrel, but I do have a lot of them. Actualy got tired out in building the lock on this one. Almost gave up. But real happy how it shot, and felt shooting it so it was worth the effort. I thought it was going to act like my bess and throw itself from my hands, but after the smoke cleared the thing was still in my hands. Then I saw a hole in the target, that made all the struggles worth it.

Chuck says I should have built the other pistol, I told him I had this one half way built before it was posted. Made up some scetches of it. I like how that person layed the gun out with the grid/scales off to the sides. We should all take note of that.

Been thinking about matchlock pistols for a long time, but just couldn't find anything one them. Not that it should ever stop me. Was thinking on the next one being a poormans wheel-lock but actauly a matchlock which seems to have been common.

Stay the course and keep on that list, you will love shooting it.

I will take my time and do the next pistol a little nicer. I would estimate the last one took a good 8 hours. But there was a few unhappy hours in there where things didn't go right. Maybe I will learn on my second pistol.

Pat

 

[Evil Roy]

Hi all.

I usually just lurk here but I just have to ask Frost: what was the title of the book where you saw the matchlock pistol in the style of a wheellock? I have actually seen a site advertising a repo for sale:[url] http://www.osvaldogatto.com[/url].ar/english/catalogo_ficha.php?item=57 My rule has always been to never trust a vendor for my historical research and I figured it was just a fantasy thing, but now, maybe it's for real????

Evil Roy

 

[k.jacobfrost]

Evil Roy,

I unfortunately do not remember the specific book that depicted one. Although, The Age of Firearms by Robert Held and Nancy Jenkins LCCN: 56-8764, does at lest make mention of matchlock pistols. I don't recall if it pictured one as well or not, if it did I did not make a copy of the image when I had a copy from the library. Now keep in mind this book is not by any means a end all of the subject, and does contain some incorrect assumptions, but it is still a good resource and will help provide other places to look.

I hope this helps.

Frost

 

[Teleoceras]

Frost:

I unfortunately do not remember the specific book that depicted one. Although, The Age of Firearms by Robert Held and Nancy Jenkins LCCN: 56-8764, does at lest make mention of matchlock pistols. I don't recall if it pictured one as well or not, if it did I did not make a copy of the image when I had a copy from the library. Now keep in mind this book is not by any means a end all of the subject, and does contain some incorrect assumptions, but it is still a good resource and will help provide other places to look.

FYI, The Age of Firearms has pictures of Japanese Matchlock pistols on page 44. The Japanese types are the only Matchlock pistols that I have seen pictured until this thread was created.

Slowmatch Forever!
Teleoceras

 

[Patrick Hemken]

The word "only" is such a strong word. They must be out there. Somewhere along they way, just as in my shop, a builder had to cut down a barrel, and would not have discarded it, but build something out of it. Granted it appears that it isn't mainstream gun design, but to say that the Japanese were only only ones to do this might be a little strong. Why do you think the whole pistol thing took off with the wheellock but not with the matchlock? There must have been a foundation set in the evolution of firearms. I have nothing to back up this observation, but experience scratchbuilding guns in my own shop.

Regaurdless of the outcome of this, the second gun is almost built, and it should be just as fun as the first gun. Not going to put away the pirate outfit yet, having too much fun with it right now to stop.

Pat

 

[Teleoceras]

Patrick:

Granted it appears that it isn't mainstream gun design, but to say that the Japanese were only only ones to do this might be a little strong.

No, I did not say that. You need to read what I said again. I said that the only PICTURES I have seen of a Matchlock Pistol are the Japanese ones. I didn't say anything about the Japanese being the only ones to build a Matchlock pistol.

The Age of Firearms even states that Eastern European and Asian coutries did tinker with a Matchlock pistol. But the only pictures I have seen are the Japanese ones.

Slowmatch Forever!
Teleoceras

 

[robinghewitt]

Why do you think the whole pistol thing took off with the wheellock but not with the matchlock?

Perhaps it was because the cavalry could afford to pay :thumbsup:

best regards

Squire Robin

 

[ChrisPer]

In my opinion its because of a basic fact - matchlock is impractical for the kind of thing a pistol is good for, which is being always ready. Until the lock was always ready, a pistol was not able to show its value.

Conversely, to keep a matchlock in business meant having a master gunner with fire whenever they might want matches lit. It needed an organisation, because the technology was so very inconvenient. If you tried to operate a caracole with matchlocks the fumble factor would ensure that you had a few individuals putting powder flasks and lit match together, or just not succeeding in getting loaded and ready in time. The technology wasn't ready for that.

 

[Patrick Hemken]

I agree, but have you ever shot a matchlock pistol? I just have and am more impressed than ever in it's capiblilities. Those that have seen me fire it recently are more than impressed with the outcome. I have seen is shoot a ball as good as a gun, and hold a pattern of #4 buckshot in an eight inch group at 20 yards on target.

A person then or now is going to go into any situation ready to deal with the mechanics or issues of the weopon they choose to use. How they dealt with the issue of a burning cord was really their problem. We probably do it a lot differently today then many years past. If they can not deal with it, they shouldn't use it, and probably didn't bring it out to play that day.

Why we do not see them today might because there was no use in any armies battle tactics at that time. We have our own history of here in the States of a Civil War fought with guns capable of more but Gernerals used outdated tactics to fight that war.

Chuck pointed out to me the early firearms having both Match and Wheellock, there must have been a reason for it's use, and more than likey to drive ones point arcoss.

I comes down to just food for thought this idea of the matchlock pistol. So we keep looking and reading, that's what the continual researching of history is all about.

Pat

 

[arquebus]

Has anyone out there seen, or had any experience with, the "German Matchlock Pistol" that is shown in the link in Evil Roy's posting?

It is a .50cal smoothbore & they state that it is a replica of a 17th century matchlock pistol that cavalry used for training, whereas they would use a wheelock for actual combat use. Sounds a little odd to me, but others out there may have more information. I emailed the company this morning & just got a reply saying they are US$550 post paid from Argentina to the U.S. However, he will have a U.S. Distributor in July '07.

 

[Henry]

Who ? Wich regiment
When ? 1601 ? 1699 ?
Where ? Germany ? There where no country of that name in the 17 th cent. It was an empire of many province , Prussia ? Bavaria ?
former republic of Venice ?
Where is the original it is supposed to be a repro of ?
etc.etc.

 

[Wes/Tex]

Who ? Wich regiment
When ? 1601 ? 1699 ?
Where ? Germany ? There where no country of that name in the 17 th cent. It was an empire of many province , Prussia ? Bavaria ?
former republic of Venice ?
Where is the original it is supposed to be a repro of ?
etc.etc.

Henry, those are my sentiments exactly! Since the typical method of "pistoling" from horseback was what we now call "gangst'a" style with the lock side up, I don't see how any weapon with an open pan could be used from horseback...even from a standing position keeping things level enough to work properly would be pretty tricky!

 

[Bob Riegl]

:hmm: "Gangsta" style h-m-m-m-m! Very interesting, I suppose this is documented somewhere, as that's quite a revelation. I agree that the thought of the open pan whilst riding a charging horse, seems improbable to me. I guess we know for certain that they didn't somehow develop an automatic pan cover????? I am planning to go into the Metropolitan Museum of Art next week and will specifically look for any such pistols. As in anything there are people who can fictionalize the existence of anything, I hardly think any small arms manufacturer plans to make a fortune by "inventing" a matchlock pistol, I could be naive, however I don't think so.

 

[robinghewitt]

I guess we know for certain that they didn't somehow develop an automatic pan cover?????

They certainly did. The last of the British Army matchlock muskets featured a "drawing pan lid". One survives on a converted wheel lock, there may be more :thumbsup:

 

[Bob Riegl]

:grin: Some times I'm so smart I scare myself and make myself sick as well. :youcrazy: :rotf: :thumbsup:

 

[arquebus]

All interesting questions & part of the reason for my posting.....wanting to verify if this pistol has any historical basis. I think I'll email the manufacturer again & see what he can tell me. I'll relay the information when I hear from him.

 

[Leonredbeard]

Firing a military wheellock 'gangsta' style makes no sense at all. :youcrazy: From my experience so far, a wheellock will not light the pan unless the powder is piled up behind the wheel to catch the sparks from the pyrite. :surrender: I have tried it. I watched a guy at Dixon's Gunmaker's faire try it repeatedly without success while insisting that the cavalries fired them that way. :bull: I think he was bamboozled by Hollywood somewhere. :blah: The wheel being on the outside of the lockplate, turning lock up causes the prime to fall away from the wheel and it will not light. :shake: :nono: I think we should put another myth to bed! :hmm:
volatpluvia

 

[Wes/Tex]

I have to agree, guess they figured it may make a fuse but it'll go off eventually! Everybody form Gustafus Adophus cavalry to ECW curassiers to Napoleon's dragoons did it, or at least that's how the artists interpreted it.

 

[Henry]

",,,I hardly think any small arms manufacturer plans to make a fortune by "inventing" a matchlock pistol..."

If you go at a reenactment event , such " improvements" of the
past is very common . Just for the F&I war period , slat chairs
lantern holders , straw tricorns , wall tents , eyeglasses by the dozen ( even for the natives ) canoe guns etc.etc.

If such a pistol really is a repro of an original , just show the original or at least a good painting of a horseman using one or a bill of sale ,or a military regulation about it , or a first hand
description of somebody who used one or the name of somebody who was shot with one .

 

[Bob Riegl]

:v Mon Ami, I agree with you regarding those accoutrements being "invented" for the one sole purpose---sales. The investment to produce a firearm with the extremely limited sales possibilities would IMHO preclude the investment of capital. When dealing in Medieval History we are severely limited as to the knowledge of the totality of weapons of war that were developed in these times. What we have a little smattering of this and that---due almost solely to the numbers of armies that were raised for all sorts of reasons, by rulers in places that amounted to City States. Just like NYC going to war against Philadelphia, and these rulers (Mayors) would have the army of conscription and also mercenaries hired to swell the masses---all of these outlanders would bring their own weapons from wherever they lived. So local weapons producers would have their equipment mixed in with another group of weapons manufactured elsewhere. So the proliferation and lack of standardization would have produced a great variety of weapons. The collecting of firearms is the only way we know of what was available in general. Being that many of these collections are still in private hands, we now lack information due to the private nature of the weapons. Even museums and extremely wealthy collectors haven't managed to come up with only a very small percentage of what was and is out there as of yet. It's just like collecting WWII weapons of war, if you delve into the History of those firearms alone, you could spend a lifetime and probably not get a complete catalog. As a serious and lifetime historian of the Medieval Perdiod, it's amazing what we don't know.