Max load for an Italian reproduction enfield

[thirdrm]

I recently purchased a reproduction p1853 enfield. I am looking to go target shooting and this coming deer season shoot some deer with it. I have received plenty of excellent advice about load amounts but I hear that the euro arms and armi sport reproductions are not designed to handle past 60 grains of black powder when live firing. Just trying to avoid blowing my breach out.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

What projectile do you intend to use? If you go "past 60" grains, you will probably have a way to go before you over-stress the barrel but why chance it? If using a Minié ball for the bullet a higher charge will stand the good chance of blowing out the bullet's skirt and destroying any accuracy. If using the lighter patched round ball, a higher charge may work okay but the rifling in the Enfield is, like all Minié guns, very shallow and you may simply kick the ball over the lands, also destroying accuracy. Start at 45 grains and see where you are. Work your way up slowly and see how it does.

Remember, the military 60 grain powder charge behind the 500 grain Minié ball was designed to kill or seriously disable a man at up to 900 yards. There is no wild game that will stand up to that any better.

 

[hawkeye2]

60 grains of 2F will put a mini right through a whitetail with no problem and I wouldn't be supprised to find it would go through 2 standing shoulder to shoulder. Have you tried a 60 grain load from your Enfield yet? It is definetly not a fun way to spend an afternoon even with a 3 band musket.

 

[Jason Lewis]

you heard wrong, while it won't do your accuracy any good with a minie, you can shoot more than 60grn. personally i would keep it under 100grn. there's really no reason to go past that in most guns.

 

[thirdrm]

Yea, I did the math on the barrel it says 3 drams black powder which is 80.5 grain so I will not exceed that, and when I go hunting il use 60 or maybe 65, but il do some research.

 

[Zonie]

Welcome to the Forum.

You can go above 80 grains of powder if you are shooting a patched .570 diameter roundball.

For example, the Lyman "BLACK POWDER HANDBOOK & LOADING MANUAL" shows the breech pressures they found for shooting a 80 grain GOEX 2Fg powder load under a Lyman #575213PH, 566 grain Minie' as 8,900 psi. That bullet had a Muzzle Velocity of 1058 and 1407 ft/lb of energy.

A patched .570 diameter roundball with an 80 grain load of GOEX 2Fg had a breech pressure of 5,200 psi and a muzzle velocity of 1288.

Upping the roundballs powder load to 120 grains raised the breech pressure to 7,900 psi with a MV of 1568 fps.

That may be somewhat extreme and it may not give good accuracy but it does demenstrate that shooting the 276 grain .570 diameter roundball lowers breech pressures and increases muzzle velocity.

Some folks find the patched roundball is more accurate than the Minie's too. You can play with the patch thickness to try to improve accuracy.

With the Minie' bullets, they must be .002-.003 smaller than the bore size to get good accuracy and often finding a bullet that is the correct size is difficult.

Yes, during the Civil War the Minie's often had more clearance than .002 but precise shooting was not a requirement on the battle field.

 

[Sharps1863]

Is the Enfield a 3 band, 2 band or Musketoon. That will make a difference in your load choice. If it is a Standard 3 band, 60grns is a good starting point. A Good place for information is the N/SSA forum " North South Shooters Association" These guys shoot competition with these and are full of good information. But for right now I would start with 60grns and work up to a load that produces a good pattern on paper. Try the patched round balls and some different weight minnies, See which one groups the best and stick with that.
More powder is not always a good thing.
You might call TOW and see if they would sell you an assortment of minnie bullets and some .58 cal round balls. Without buying 25 per size. My Zouave shot the 575-213 510grn Lyman minnie with 75 grns of 2f with good groupings. I cast these myself from soft lead.
It would had no problem dropping a deer.

 

[ResearchPress]

The service charge for your P.1853 Enfield was 2.5 drams (68.5 grains approx) with a 530 grain Minie bullet.

I use 75 grains of a 2f equivalent powder with a 560 grain Minie in my original P.1861 Short Rifle. This does me fine for target shooting out to 600 yards. I increase my load a little for occasional forays at 800 yards and drop it to 65 grains for 50m offhand.

David

 

[thirdrm]

I have a 3 band euro arms 1853 enfield. Most people say they started at 60 grains and went up to 65 by the end of the war, im sure those are rounded numbers. I was going to start at 40 shooting targets at 100 yards. I bought 50 .577 smooth side mine balls which is what seems to be the historical round, at least for the British (not sure if this is actual fact or not, but it seems to be the general consensus).

 

[varsity07840]

Welcome to the Forum.

You can go above 80 grains of powder if you are shooting a patched .570 diameter roundball.

For example, the Lyman "BLACK POWDER HANDBOOK & LOADING MANUAL" shows the breech pressures they found for shooting a 80 grain GOEX 2Fg powder load under a Lyman #575213PH, 566 grain Minie' as 8,900 psi. That bullet had a Muzzle Velocity of 1058 and 1407 ft/lb of energy.

A patched .570 diameter roundball with an 80 grain load of GOEX 2Fg had a breech pressure of 5,200 psi and a muzzle velocity of 1288.

Upping the roundballs powder load to 120 grains raised the breech pressure to 7,900 psi with a MV of 1568 fps.

That may be somewhat extreme and it may not give good accuracy but it does demenstrate that shooting the 276 grain .570 diameter roundball lowers breech pressures and increases muzzle velocity.

Some folks find the patched roundball is more accurate than the Minie's too. You can play with the patch thickness to try to improve accuracy.

With the Minie' bullets, they must be .002-.003 smaller than the bore size to get good accuracy and often finding a bullet that is the correct size is difficult.

Yes, during the Civil War the Minie's often had more clearance than .002 but precise shooting was not a requirement on the battle field.

Zonie:

Your reference to Lyman's handbook interests me. I remember reading that Lyman changed/updated their loading data in more recent printings. My copy is the 6th printing from 1985, and their data
for the .58 shows pressures and velocities much lower for a given charge and projectile. As an example, with a 505 gr #575213(the original military style) minie and 80gr of 2f, the velocity was 971 FPS and the pressure 5,100 pounds. With a patched .570 ball and the same charge the velocity was 1177 FPS and the pressure was 4,800. The barrel length was 32". The same minie with the standard military 60 gr. charge only produced 806 FPS, which I believe is pretty low. I think it should be more like 950.
What does your copy say for a similar weight minie
and 60 gr. charge?

Duane

 

[bangfxr]

If your shooting PRB's 60 - 70 grain FFG will do the job just fine. If your shooting minnies you need to use care as there are thin skirt and thick skirt minnies. If you shoot thin skirted minnies anything over 70 grain FFg you stand a good chance of leaving the bottom ring of the skirt in your barrel then you have to get a jag thats designed to cut that ring into peices. This is why we ping the rod at reenactments to insure there are no rings and the barrels clear. I shoot the thick skirted minnies for hunting and shooting events in my musket and I use 65 grains of FFG and hit 300 yard targets with no problem and dead on at 100 yard 3 inch bullseye at 10 consecutive shots. Hope this helps best of luck and good shooting.

 

[thirdrm]

Thanks, it does, I bought what i think look like thinner skirted minies, so I wont go above 70. I was planning on making my cartirdges ahead of time several at 40 several at 50 and several at 60, but have the majority at 50 as that seems like the median ammount for what people tell me i should start at.

 

[Zonie]

"...the .58 shows pressures and velocities much lower for a given charge and projectile. As an example, with a 505 gr #575213(the original military style) minie and 80gr of 2f, the velocity was 971 FPS and the pressure 5,100 pounds. With a patched .570 ball and the same charge the velocity was 1177 FPS and the pressure was 4,800. The barrel length was 32". The same minie with the standard military 60 gr. charge only produced 806 FPS, which I believe is pretty low. I think it should be more like 950.
What does your copy say for a similar weight minie
and 60 gr. charge?"

My Lyman book is the 2nd Ed, copyright 2001.

Actually, they give data for two different barrels.

The .58 cal 24" 1:48 twist barrel shows a 80 grain load of GOEX 2Fg under a #575213, 510 grain Minie' at 1081fps with a breech pressure of 8,500 psi.

This barrel with a .570 patched ball shows 1288fps, 5200 psi with the same 80 grain load.

This barrel with the 510 grain Minie' shows 930 fps with a breech pressure of 6700 psi with a 60 grain GOEX 2Fg powder load.

The .58 cal 32" barrel with a 1:48 twist, using the same 510 grain Minie' and a 80 grain GOEX 2Fg powder load shows a MV of 1153fps with a breech pressure of 7,700psi.

A .570 patched roundball in this barrel with the same 80 grain load shows a MV of 1323 fps and 5,400 psi.

A 60 grain powder load under the 510 grain Minie' is 947 fps with a 6000 psi breech pressure.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Using the Davenport formula for the maximum EFFICIENT load, I get 3.0383 grain per cubic inch of bore, or 73 grains, approx. for the 24" barrel, and 97 grains for the 32" barrel.

For the Original Poster, the Davenport formula[ 11.5 grains per cubic inch of bore] was intended for use by TARGET shooters- NOT HUNTERS- to find the most efficient, ACCURATE load to shoot in matches. It does not represent any Maximum CHARGE of powder you can put safely in that barrel. It simply represents a point at which powder begins to burn outside the muzzle, and velocity gains per grains added beyond the max. eff. load begin to drop. It also represents a point where adding more powder produces more FELT recoil, and that in itself can lead to poorer accuracy. Since target matches often are " endurance" contests, target shooters often seek the lightest, accurate load they can use in such matches.

Hunters, on the other hand, will give up a bit of "accuracy"( group size at longer distances) to flatten the trajectory( arc of the ball over the range), and increase penetration in living tissue to insure a quick kill. They will often seek a load that uses more powder to give more velocity, even if the gun does recoil more, if they can get reasonable accuracy for the size game they hunt.

The only safety concern there is how much pressure is created, and what that does to both the stock, and the nipple and breech plug of your gun. Most hunters do NOT use their Hunting loads for shooting targets, as its a waste of money, and using reduced loads for target shooting saves their nipples and stocks from the abuse and punishment of the heavy hunting loads. :hmm: :hatsoff:

 

[Jason Lewis]

i've never used the Davenport formula, has anybody tried it and had any luck?

 

[paulvallandigham]

I use it all the time to find accurate target loads. PHil Quaglino, who passed the formula on to me through my brother, Peter, used it through out his career as a champion rifle and pistol shooters in both state, and national competitions. Some of Phil's records still stand; others he now shares with newer shooters. He uses the formula with both rifles and pistols to determine accurate loads for target shooting. I don't think he has taken a shot at game out at 100 yds, or beyond in years- he is too good a hunter, and prefers to take closer shots, so he can take head shots, and not spoil any meat. So, I can't say what loads he uses for hunting. I do know that in the 6 years that my brother has been working with him, and testing guns at the range, Phil has never exceeded the formula loads in any of the guns. He has both a pace maker, and a defibrillator in his chest, and he simply can't take much recoil. He even was working on a .28 caliber deer rifle that weighed no more than 5 lbs, scope site included, so he could take head shots on deer, and not have to suffer recoil, or carry a heavy gun. Its legal where he hunts deer, BTW.

Like Phil, and peter, I first shoot my rifles for groups at 50 yards, reading my patches, and the target to zero the sights and settle on a load. Then I shoot a test target over my chronograph to collect additional data. If I am not happy with the SDV of a load, I will tweak first one thing, then another, until I get the lowest SDV I can. Each barrel has its "wants" and dislikes, so I spend time on a range finding these things out. I do believe new guns need a break-in time, where all you do is lots of shooting, without worrying about group sizes. After 200 rounds, or so, the barrels will usually begin to shoot better groups than they did with those first targets.

Peter has lapped bores, polished them with every manner of substance, or abrasives, trying to shorten up the "break-in" time, but no one method seems to work in all barrels. Its what makes this shooting sport, in part, different from others, and a lot of fun, for most of us.

I know that Phil knows lots of competitive target shooters around the country who use the formula as he does. I am NOT a competitive target shooter. It bores the heck out of me. I prefer to hunt, as I am fundamentally wired to be a tracker. My brother is doing the target shooting. Because I don't hang out at the ranges with the target shooters, and don't participate, I can't give you the names of other shooters at Friendship who use the formula. But, they are there. Some of them Keep the formula a "secret". Phil has built revolvers for the target shooters there, where he has sleeved the chambers of the cylinders so that the cylinder will only hold a formula amount of 3Fg powder, and the forward shoulder of the sleeve( bushing) acts as a consistent "stop" for all the balls, insuring that the cylinder to barrel JUMP of each ball is the same from each chamber.

For you information, Formula powder charges for standard replica revolvers with 7-7 1/2" barrels are 12-15 grains of 3Fg for the .36 caliber guns, and 18 grains of 3Fg for the .44-45 caliber guns. Without the bushings in the chambers, you can achieve the same accuracy using fillers on top of the powder charge. These loads are used by the target shooters to shoot pistol targets out to 50 yards. :hmm: :thumbsup:

 

[RedFeather]

Remember, the military 60 grain powder charge behind the 500 grain Minié ball was designed to kill or seriously disable a man at up to 900 yards. There is no wild game that will stand up to that any better.

I once asked a fellow who was a long time gun nut and hunter why so many military rifles were sporterized as hunters? He asked me, "What does a deer weigh?" "Oh, I guess about a hundred sixty pounds." "What's a man weigh?" Your remark, above, reminded me of that short, yet ever so enlightening, conversation. :grin:

When I first got my Zouave, I shot the 525 grain Minie over 65 grains FFg weating while a T-shirt. Got me some nice yellow and bluish-green bruises. Now, in combat, that load's all good. I don't think you need any more than a standard load such as that for most anything in North America. You could even go less with some of the lighter, shorter bullets. In the case of my Zoli Zouave, they might even shoot more accurately.

 

[bangfxr]

For practicality I'll stay with 60 to 65 grains FFG for shooting events with PRB and hunting with minies. I get good results and for reenacting I use 50 grains not as dramatic as with 60 but I can get a pound of powder to last longer and still get a bang and smoke.

 

[Jason Lewis]

hmm, interesting. :hmm:

 

[jan buck]

for hunting you may want to go with the 577611 a 540 gr heavy skirted minie.
use the 575213 for paper with GI loads.60 grs.

577611 will handle heavier powder charges. you will need to find out what load/minie works in your musket. this will take time and practice.