MercerLake
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:hatsoff: That's a very nice,(GREAT BULL) and quite an accomplishment. At that altitude any grade is steep, just going downhill can be a chore. :bow: :thumbsup:
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Maxi-Hunter performance on game?
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Rat Trapper
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You might want to try some Hornady Great Plains bullets in your rifle also. My TC Hawken likes the 390 grain bullet (54 cal). Using 120 grains by volume of Triple Seven 2f with the 390 gr bullet it ran across the screens at 1673 fps. Shot 4 deer with them never found any bullets. They shoot so well out of my rifle and work great on game,I have no need to buy other bullets.
MercerLake
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:grin: The reason my wife uses a paltry load of 70 gr of FFg with her .54 435 gr Maxi-Hunter is she has a damaged shoulder (car wreck) can't stand much recoil. Also has a non-traditional recoil pad (Limb Saver) on her rifle, the elk didn't know the difference. This load makes about 1200 fps and blew right through. Her elk went about 60 feet and dropped dead.
I load my .54 with 120 Gr of FFg with PRB as it has a 1:66 twist and that shoots very flat to 100 yds or so. I also use a .62 PRB rifle with a 1:144' twist with 175gr FFg,Wonder wad and that makes about 1850 fps. Overkill? Oh yeah, but it shoots flat and will dump moose easily (2 so far) and a couple of elk. Main point is to shoot what you can hit with that has enough energy to "Git er done", and have fun hunting close. If you can see the eye of your game you are close enough generally.
The neat thing about muzzle-loaders is that you can vary the load from plinking loads to stump busters.
The restrictions that Oregon puts on the muzzle-loader hunts keep the crowds away and that is really good. Hunting all day and not seeing another soul is good for the soul! :v
I load my .54 with 120 Gr of FFg with PRB as it has a 1:66 twist and that shoots very flat to 100 yds or so. I also use a .62 PRB rifle with a 1:144' twist with 175gr FFg,Wonder wad and that makes about 1850 fps. Overkill? Oh yeah, but it shoots flat and will dump moose easily (2 so far) and a couple of elk. Main point is to shoot what you can hit with that has enough energy to "Git er done", and have fun hunting close. If you can see the eye of your game you are close enough generally.
The neat thing about muzzle-loaders is that you can vary the load from plinking loads to stump busters.
The restrictions that Oregon puts on the muzzle-loader hunts keep the crowds away and that is really good. Hunting all day and not seeing another soul is good for the soul! :v
paulvallandigham
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Overkill for your shoulder, for sure. Your wife has the better idea.
If you will just do penetration tests, I am sure that you will understand that it is the weight of the ball that determines its ability to penetrate, and not muzzle velocity.
Now, you have very SLOW round ball Rates of twist in your guns, so you may have to load them up to get the best accuracy. But, 1200 FPS is more than enough, and 1850 fps second is something reserved for the .36 and .32 caliber guns.
Newton's first law of physics says that for every action, there must be an equal and opposite REACTION( recoil ). Your .62 is shooting a 325 grain piece of lead. That is going to get anyone's attention at that velocity, but the Ballistic's Coefficient on that round ball is so poor( .675) that the ball sheds the extra velocity within 50 yds. At 100 yds, no Elk is going to know the difference between being hit with a round ball going 900 fps, or one going 1000 fps. The ball will still penetrate through the Elk.
If you will just do penetration tests, I am sure that you will understand that it is the weight of the ball that determines its ability to penetrate, and not muzzle velocity.
Now, you have very SLOW round ball Rates of twist in your guns, so you may have to load them up to get the best accuracy. But, 1200 FPS is more than enough, and 1850 fps second is something reserved for the .36 and .32 caliber guns.
Newton's first law of physics says that for every action, there must be an equal and opposite REACTION( recoil ). Your .62 is shooting a 325 grain piece of lead. That is going to get anyone's attention at that velocity, but the Ballistic's Coefficient on that round ball is so poor( .675) that the ball sheds the extra velocity within 50 yds. At 100 yds, no Elk is going to know the difference between being hit with a round ball going 900 fps, or one going 1000 fps. The ball will still penetrate through the Elk.
pab1 said:Congratulations! It sounds like you got plenty of penetration. I am surprised at the size of the exit hole after reading the other posts.
Here is a photo of the bull from my previous post. The picture really flattens out the terrain. This is at 11,500 feet elevation and steeper than it looks. I was lucky he didn't make it to the drop off he was headed for. That area is very hard to get into, let alone pack an elk out of.
Hey he could have fallen into the Snake River Canyon, then you just set up camp beside the danged heavy thing until you've eaten it all. Packin' out the rack is tough enough. :rotf:
My father got one of the modern muzzleloaders when the muzzleloader season became a remaining tags season here. He had never killed a deer with a muzzleloader before. We were on our way to the house about 15 minutes before dark crossing the farm in the truck when I spotted 7 deer slipping down a drainage ditch at 100 yards or so. We stopped, got out of the truck, and dad shoot a nice doe with a 385 Hornady Great Plains bullet over 100 grains of P. At the shot, the deer scattered fast enough that we were not sure which deer was which. It was getting dark by the time I found blood about 100 yards from where she was hit. It was a cloudy with a storm moving in, so we went to the house for lights and a quick bite before trailing her. It was one of those nights where you can not see your hand in front of your face without light. We tracked her across a creek, across a food plot, and several hundred yards in the woods. I was looking for the next spot of blood and actually bumped into the deer in the dark. She was still on her feet, but she was very sick. We had not brought guns because we did not expect this, and because shooting deer after dark is not allowed. She was staying just out of range to tackle her, and moving up hill. We ended up having to send dad to the truck for a gun and shooting her again by flashlight. Allowed or not, we were not going tolet her suffer any longer. It is one of the most sorry experiences I have ever had hunting.
The bullet hit about 8 inches back from where it should have, went thru a lobe of the liver, and then hit the offside hide at the flank where the skin could stretch and stop it from exiting. It was the size of a quarter. About 2 square inches of liver was pulp, and the animal was bleeding internally very badly. The blood had to fill the belly, then come thru the diaphram and out a hole high on the ribcage. If the bullet had gone on thru, the deer would have been dead before where I found the first drop of blood most likely. Having hit the same shot with a bow several times over the years, the deer went about 50 yards, laid down, and died within a few minutes. If the bullet had exited, the same would have happened that time in my opinion.
That is the problem with the bullets with huge hollow points for muzzleloaders. No exit hole can often mean no recovery if the hit is not perfect. If you insist on a hollow point bullet, contact Precision and get some of the Ultimates. They have a tiny hollow point showing that opens much bigger. The nose is a true bullet form that has a higher BC than most muzzleloading bullets. The results from the fifty caliber Ultimates that I have seen have been great. The Great Plains and the Maxi-hunters will flatten game if the shot is perfect. If it isn't, sometimes that huge nose cavity bites.
I use the Lee target Minnie in my conical gun these days. The nose is almost flat, and they kill as wel as the hollow points do. They also exit almost 100 percent of the time, no matter where you hit the game when you start them at a decent speed. Out of a 54, they would be my choice for shots within 100 yards if the gun shot them well. The flat front pretty much limits them past that.
The bullet hit about 8 inches back from where it should have, went thru a lobe of the liver, and then hit the offside hide at the flank where the skin could stretch and stop it from exiting. It was the size of a quarter. About 2 square inches of liver was pulp, and the animal was bleeding internally very badly. The blood had to fill the belly, then come thru the diaphram and out a hole high on the ribcage. If the bullet had gone on thru, the deer would have been dead before where I found the first drop of blood most likely. Having hit the same shot with a bow several times over the years, the deer went about 50 yards, laid down, and died within a few minutes. If the bullet had exited, the same would have happened that time in my opinion.
That is the problem with the bullets with huge hollow points for muzzleloaders. No exit hole can often mean no recovery if the hit is not perfect. If you insist on a hollow point bullet, contact Precision and get some of the Ultimates. They have a tiny hollow point showing that opens much bigger. The nose is a true bullet form that has a higher BC than most muzzleloading bullets. The results from the fifty caliber Ultimates that I have seen have been great. The Great Plains and the Maxi-hunters will flatten game if the shot is perfect. If it isn't, sometimes that huge nose cavity bites.
I use the Lee target Minnie in my conical gun these days. The nose is almost flat, and they kill as wel as the hollow points do. They also exit almost 100 percent of the time, no matter where you hit the game when you start them at a decent speed. Out of a 54, they would be my choice for shots within 100 yards if the gun shot them well. The flat front pretty much limits them past that.
Mad Professor
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Runner, I'm very surprized that your Dad did not get a pass through with that bullet pushed by 100 gr of P. I have used the 385 gr buffalo bullet of similar design (80 gr goex), the 425 gr GP in my 54 (90 gr goex) and have yet to recover a bullet even if it angled through a shoulder out to 100 yds.
I never did either, and I killed a dozen or so deer with them over the years. Most looked like they had been hit by a truck when the 385 hammered them. I saw that shot, trailed the deer, and then dressed it myself. I am a big fan of an exit hole to assist in recovery if for no other reason. I would still not be afraid of the 385 on deer, but we are discussing bigger game here. Those big nose cavities are a very mixed blessing.
I generally use roundball only, but if I know the setup is going to provide longer than normal shots, I carry the slug gun with the Lee Target Minnie. Pretty much the same damage as a round ball at 50 yards, but all the way out to 125 or so. I take both rifles on most trips and a 12 guage barrel for the slug gun frame also.
I generally use roundball only, but if I know the setup is going to provide longer than normal shots, I carry the slug gun with the Lee Target Minnie. Pretty much the same damage as a round ball at 50 yards, but all the way out to 125 or so. I take both rifles on most trips and a 12 guage barrel for the slug gun frame also.
Mad Professor
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Runner, I've got a 58 I've used the 525 gr GP in (90 gr FFg) . Killed one deer and the 5 inch hard maple behind it too (passed through them both). It's really TOO much for deer but would knock the hell out of bigger game.
Years ago, I was slipping about 45 minutes before dark. I slipped out of the woods and motioned to my dad that I was going to make a circle around him to try and push deer his way. I was not slipping, but I was not stomping along either. At about 30 yards, a huge buck stood up and looked to see what was making that noise. His shoulder and chest were behind a cedar, so I pulled in front of the shoulder on the neck and hammered him. I was shooting 100 grains of P under a 490 roundball out of a 28 inch barrel. A big deer came running right at me thru the smoke. I dropped my rifle and was about half way thru a quickdraw of my dragoon when I realized that deer had no horns. Realizing the buck was not in sight and I had no idea what had happened, I picked my rifle up, leaned it against a tree, and hot footed it for where the buck had been standing. He was down in the small depression he had been bedded with the large doe in. He was shaking his head, had control of his front legs pretty much, and was getting control of his back legs back very quickly. He spun around and hooked at me with his horns. I kicked him upside the head and stepped around him to shoot thru the rib cage. The 250 REAL out of the pistol ended things right then at maybe two yards.
I was a lot younger and dumber then. When I checked, the ball had penetrated 18 inches in the neck thru solid muscle and stopped under the skin on the off side. It had just ticked maybe 1/8th of the spine, shocking the deer so that he lost control of his legs long enough for me to finish him off. I was PO'ed at the balls preformance. A modern bullet would have torn his spine in half. I switched to the Denver Bullet Company 385 Buffalo bullet because those darned roundballs were no good. When they stopped being available locally, I switched to the Hornady version of the same bullet. For many years, you could not convince me to hunt deer with roundball. I did not return to using roundball until about ten years ago when I watched a 385 do basically the same thing.
Since then, I have killed a lot of deer with roundball, and I have never had a problem that was not caused by bullet placement. I still load newcomers up with the 385 or a soft lead REAL if their gun will shoot them well.
We don't have any game bigger than deer here to hunt unless you run across a hog in the woods. On bigger game, I think I would likely use a REAL or one of the Lee Target Minnies today. It is about bullet placement, not bullet energy with these guns.
By the way, that 18 inches in the neck muscle was pretty much across the deers neck! He was huge, and his neck was swollen a lot. When we loaded him in the truck, with his rear against the front of the bed, we had to bend his neck a lot to get the tailgate closed.
I was a lot younger and dumber then. When I checked, the ball had penetrated 18 inches in the neck thru solid muscle and stopped under the skin on the off side. It had just ticked maybe 1/8th of the spine, shocking the deer so that he lost control of his legs long enough for me to finish him off. I was PO'ed at the balls preformance. A modern bullet would have torn his spine in half. I switched to the Denver Bullet Company 385 Buffalo bullet because those darned roundballs were no good. When they stopped being available locally, I switched to the Hornady version of the same bullet. For many years, you could not convince me to hunt deer with roundball. I did not return to using roundball until about ten years ago when I watched a 385 do basically the same thing.
Since then, I have killed a lot of deer with roundball, and I have never had a problem that was not caused by bullet placement. I still load newcomers up with the 385 or a soft lead REAL if their gun will shoot them well.
We don't have any game bigger than deer here to hunt unless you run across a hog in the woods. On bigger game, I think I would likely use a REAL or one of the Lee Target Minnies today. It is about bullet placement, not bullet energy with these guns.
By the way, that 18 inches in the neck muscle was pretty much across the deers neck! He was huge, and his neck was swollen a lot. When we loaded him in the truck, with his rear against the front of the bed, we had to bend his neck a lot to get the tailgate closed.
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My sons and I have killed several deer with the .50 cal Maxi-hunters, Buffalo bullets, and Great Plains bullets. All have performed well and none of them went past 40 yards. All had full penetration, and made good blood trails.
We have also killed two elk with the .50 cal and Maxi-balls. Neither made full penetration, both stopped against off-side hide. One elk went down on the spot and the other went 200 yards before laying down, and required a follow-up shot (first shot only hit one lung).
I have also been in on two other elk killed with the .54 cal and roundballs. Neither had any great penetration. One was spine shot and anchored and killed with follow-up. The other was lung shot, with both lungs penetrated but stopped by off-side ribs. This done by my hunting buddy. He's happy with that performance, but I call it marginal.
I much prefer penetration and will only shoot conicals for elk. They are tough animals. BTW, I've killed several other elk with centerfires.
YMMV,
Jim
We have also killed two elk with the .50 cal and Maxi-balls. Neither made full penetration, both stopped against off-side hide. One elk went down on the spot and the other went 200 yards before laying down, and required a follow-up shot (first shot only hit one lung).
I have also been in on two other elk killed with the .54 cal and roundballs. Neither had any great penetration. One was spine shot and anchored and killed with follow-up. The other was lung shot, with both lungs penetrated but stopped by off-side ribs. This done by my hunting buddy. He's happy with that performance, but I call it marginal.
I much prefer penetration and will only shoot conicals for elk. They are tough animals. BTW, I've killed several other elk with centerfires.
YMMV,
Jim
Rat Trapper
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Hunting is all about shot placement! Having shot enough game of my own plus being on the hunt with others I know strange things do happen. Things that should not happen when bullets (broadheads too) hit an animal, but for reasons I can not explain do happen. The fact that the bullet did not pass through is one of those events. All the deer I've shot with the Great Plains bullet had the bullet pass through. Others who I have talked to using the same bullet also claimed pass throughs. If you hunt long enough you will one day run into something that is hard to explain. That said, I do believe in the Hornady Great Plains bullets and will continue to use them.
MercerLake
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:grin: I have done some penetration testing comparing .62 cal round-ball, some 545 gr .45s from a 45-100, and a 250gr Partition from a .338. The "victim" was a long plywood box stuffed with newspapers that had been thoroughly water-soaked, the box had a 48" depth, (thought that would stop anything). Wrong!! At 100 yards the .62 PRB penetrated about 20" as did the 250gr .338, the long .45 cals tumbled and exited after 48". The interesting thing is the way the "box" reacted to the impacts, the box weighed well over 150 lbs, and was supported on a couple of saw-horses. The .338 did not move the box, the .45's moved the box back 2-3", the .62 Rb moved it back and skewed almost to the point of falling off the saw-horses, 6-8". Momentum and dwell-time of the projectile on target are a wonderful thing. The .62 Rb caused a relatively uniform wound cavity 1-2" diameter for the entire depth of penetration as did the .45 slugs. The 338 was used for a comparison as I knew what it did on moose and was readying for my first muzzle-loader moose hunt. The point of all this is, that I feel that a large Rb is as effective or more so on large game as any modern cartridge within a reasonable range.
I did not do any chrono-graphing of these different bullets at 100 yards only at 10' from the muzzle. The .62 Zephyr has an extremely slow twist 1:144" this necessitates the large charge, with the intergal brake the recoil is about like a 12 ga express load. Someday I will change the barrel for a faster twist (1:100") this will allow using less powder. :hmm:
I did not do any chrono-graphing of these different bullets at 100 yards only at 10' from the muzzle. The .62 Zephyr has an extremely slow twist 1:144" this necessitates the large charge, with the intergal brake the recoil is about like a 12 ga express load. Someday I will change the barrel for a faster twist (1:100") this will allow using less powder. :hmm:
I have been using 430gr TC Maxi-balls for a good long time using 94 gr P. Real happy with them. Taken around 25 bucks, half dozen bulls, and two moose. Probably over kill on the deer but Iam happy with performance on larger animals.
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