Maximum loads for 1858 Remington

[Small Arms Collector]

I’m attempting to find the maximum load for an 8 inch Pietta 44 caliber 1858 Remington using the Kerr bullet from Erasgone, and also wondering about historic loadings

Would it be possible to use the Kerr bullet over 35 grains of 3F? What about 40? Or is 30 all that would fit? I would be using either triple 7 or Swiss.

What load would historically been used in paper cartridges?

Would it be safe to use 4F or Swiss 0b? Is it even possible to find Swiss 0b? I doubt that would be safe in an original, but what about these modern reproductions? Generally 4F is for priming only, but I wonder…

My goal, if possible, is to get a Kerr to 1,000 feet per second or better.

I should provide context. My entry in to the world of cap and ball has 3 main reasons: 1: fun, it is a lot of fun 2: possible use in cowboy action and 3 (The main one): as a backup in a no ammo scenario. I still remember the last panic and the empty ammo shelves and damn near $2 a round for 9mm plinking rounds, and it’s still not entirely over as prices are still not quite back to pre panic levels. What if that happens again, and what if the ammo does not come back (I’ll leave the reason up to you), how do I get ammo? Well I do reload, but to this day finding primers is not simple and I categorically refuse to pay $90-$100+ for a box of 1,000, and during a panic powder is an issue getting too, as are casings, and bullets. I see cap and ball as a work around, I can mold my own bullets from scrap lead, I don’t need casings, and if I really have to I can make my own percussion caps too (and they will not sell out right away like everything else, though they eventually do), so they are a way to keep shooting. Also, should the time ever come when I am even out of my defensive ammo they are something that I can carry, that’s mostly my reasoning to find the max load, close range defense, and at 1,000+ feet per second (or even close) a heavy conical like a kerr would rival even some modern ammo for power.

Why the Kerr? Because conicals are better and the Kerr is the only historical bullet that will fit all the modern reproductions (the Johnson and Dow is close but there are some that even it won’t fit).

 

[ppg1949]

Hopefully one of the pistolero members will jump in. Just from what I read, it scares me. Just from my experience with Remington’s, with 30 grains your pushing the limit especially with a bullet. For that type of powder charge you should get a Dragoon or Walker. Also, I hope you talking about a steel frame 1858. Good luck and be safe.

 

[new2bp]

With a steel frame 1858, round balls (144gr of weight, not a lot of bearing surface for friction), using real BP the max powder charge is however much you can cram in the hole and still fully seat the bullet. Someone posted some velocity numbers on this forum with various amounts of powder and using both real black and substitutes, would be worth looking at, but IIRC a 35gr 3Fg charge got the ball moving at 850ish fps.

 

[m4fun]

My Uberti's get 30gr of 3F - My Uberti carbine gets 35gr, but check you have to also check volume capacity. Not sure it can hold much more than 35 with RB. Not sure about the volume of the Kerr would clear, YMMV!

 

[rafterob]

If I recall the chamber holds 35 grains, you can just get a round ball compressed on that. It makum big boom! I shot 17 grains in mine.

 

[Campbell]

Fill your cylinder chambers up about 1/8” from the top, cover with a lubed felt wad, seat the ball - that’s about your max. 2 or 3f works fine

 

[Pete453]

My Pietta 58 will hold 40grs 3f and a ball with over ball lube. That load layed out plenty of men during the CW. The Kerr's are pointy, if you want to shoot meat you want as big of a flat point as you can get. With these 185gr flat point bullets, my 58 will hold 35grs Goex 3f and hit 1000fps. A 220gr version out of my old army shot through this deer at 75-80 yds. They kill deer just fine. If you only hit 900fps, they would blow through most anything that needs shooting. Don't worry so much about speed, go for a big flat point, or a full load with a round ball. You'll be fine, providing you can shoot well.

 

[Pete453]

I forgot to add, 40grs Goex and a ball does 1100fps out of the 58, so there's your number, and then some. I hope that's some help to you.

 

[smoothshooter]

I’m attempting to find the maximum load for an 8 inch Pietta 44 caliber 1858 Remington using the Kerr bullet from Erasgone, and also wondering about historic loadings

Would it be possible to use the Kerr bullet over 35 grains of 3F? What about 40? Or is 30 all that would fit? I would be using either triple 7 or Swiss.

What load would historically been used in paper cartridges?

Would it be safe to use 4F or Swiss 0b? Is it even possible to find Swiss 0b? I doubt that would be safe in an original, but what about these modern reproductions? Generally 4F is for priming only, but I wonder…

My goal, if possible, is to get a Kerr to 1,000 feet per second or better.

I should provide context. My entry in to the world of cap and ball has 3 main reasons: 1: fun, it is a lot of fun 2: possible use in cowboy action and 3 (The main one): as a backup in a no ammo scenario. I still remember the last panic and the empty ammo shelves and damn near $2 a round for 9mm plinking rounds, and it’s still not entirely over as prices are still not quite back to pre panic levels. What if that happens again, and what if the ammo does not come back (I’ll leave the reason up to you), how do I get ammo? Well I do reload, but to this day finding primers is not simple and I categorically refuse to pay $90-$100+ for a box of 1,000, and during a panic powder is an issue getting too, as are casings, and bullets. I see cap and ball as a work around, I can mold my own bullets from scrap lead, I don’t need casings, I can make my own black powder (and it, and substitutes is also a bit simpler to find), and if I really have to I can make my own percussion caps too (and they will not sell out right away like everything else, though they eventually do), so they are a way to keep shooting. Also, should the time ever come when I am even out of my defensive ammo they are something that I can carry, that’s mostly my reasoning to find the max load, close range defense, and at 1,000+ feet per second (or even close) a heavy conical like a kerr would rival even some modern ammo for power.

Why the Kerr? Because conicals are better and the Kerr is the only historical bullet that will fit all the modern reproductions (the Johnson and Dow is close but there are some that even it won’t fit).

It is impossible to overload it as long as you are using real black powder. Even 4 FFG.

 

[nkbj]

With the brands and granulations of black and the various substitute powders there's much to choose from when working up accuracy loads and hunting loads.

 

[Some_Mook]

Fill your cylinder chambers up about 1/8” from the top, cover with a lubed felt wad, seat the ball - that’s about your max. 2 or 3f works fine

I would not recommend this unless planning to shoot soon. The lube will almost certainly leech into the powder over time and likely effect reliability. Also if using a conical as the OP states, there really should be no need for a felt wad over the powder.

 

[Tom A Hawk]

I can get 35 grains with a round ball and 30 with a 200 grain Lee conical.

 

[Small Arms Collector]

It is impossible to overload it as long as you are using real black powder. Even 4 FFG.

Really? That’s encouraging, if it can indeed use 4f I would imagine that would give some extra oomph. But what about Triple 7? Real black powder is not common in my area.

 

[Eterry]

Really? That’s encouraging, if it can indeed use 4f I would imagine that would give some extra oomph. But what about Triple 7? Real black powder is not common in my area.

You might want to ponder the fact that the 45 LC used a heavy (255gr) bullet @ 750fps. And No one ever called it wimpy. The same for that Browning made pistol made in 1911.

I read... maybe here, where Civil War paper cartridges for CnB revolvers used around 28grs.
We as a whole have become infatuated with large powder loads. That's not historical in most cases.
Remember the Walker was a one-of revolver made by a then fledgling company seeking a military contract. The pistol sold, but often exploded, causing the next version to use less powder.

 

[Some_Mook]

Real black powder is not common in my area.

Real Black Powder, in Michigan, is most easily obtained by ordering it from a vender and having it shipped to you. It is not cheap with the hazmat shipping cost, but it is available.

Maine Powder House
Graf's
Track of the Wolf
Buffalo Arms
Midway USA
Powder Inc

Powder, Inc and Maine Powder House both require purchase release forms for them to have on file and you can download the forms from their websites. Pretty simple really.

 

[Stantheman86]

+1 like was said above, the .45 Long Colt cartridge had a 40 grain charge of black pistol powder.

So 30-35 grains is far from a "magnum" load or unsafe.

Service charges with a conical were lighter in the original period, depending on who made the cartridges but the Ordnance Dept liked the charges around 24-27 grains of powder with a conical , the powder was close to 4f going by surviving cartridges that were opened.....the idea was to keep fouling down to keep the gun running instead of going for a little more power

 

[Stantheman86]

Before I knew better I used to just top chambers off with Pyrodex P or 777 3f , and cram the ball down . I never had a problem

 

[Bad Karma]

My Pietta 58 will hold 40grs 3f and a ball with over ball lube. That load layed out plenty of men during the CW. The Kerr's are pointy, if you want to shoot meat you want as big of a flat point as you can get. With these 185gr flat point bullets, my 58 will hold 35grs Goex 3f and hit 1000fps. A 220gr version out of my old army shot through this deer at 75-80 yds. They kill deer just fine. If you only hit 900fps, they would blow through most anything that needs shooting. Don't worry so much about speed, go for a big flat point, or a full load with a round ball. You'll be fine, providing you can shoot well.

Hey Pete. Nice shooting… is that an Accurate Mold?

BTW, if you modify your seating ram with a bit of JB Weld it will turn the Kerr into a flat point every time you seat the bullet. Slick as anything.

 

[Pete453]

No, I had both moulds made up by Lee, they're modifications of the Lee conicals. My NEXT mould will be an Accurate, the 45-200s, or the 45-220s. Those big honking flat points should hit HARD. I've shot deer with a 44-280wfn out of my modern 44. They flat work.

 

[Bad Karma]

Before I knew better I used to just top chambers off with Pyrodex P or 777 3f , and cram the ball down . I never had a problem

Thank God you got educated! You could have just continued down that road blissfully unaware!