Maximum loads for 1858 Remington

[Smokerr]

I've always read that whatever volume of Black Powder fits in the cylinder, with the ball seated so as not to interfere with cylinder rotation, is OK. Seems simple.

But have you done it? Lots of Urban Legend stuff you can read. In a 47 Walker that is going to be well over 1000 FPS. Ruger may handle it but what is the point if its a wild load or you lead up the bore?

 

[muzzleloadingat18]

But have you done it? Lots of Urban Legend stuff you can read. In a 47 Walker that is going to be well over 1000 FPS. Ruger may handle it but what is the point if its a wild load or you lead up the bore?

I loaded my ubirty 1858 with 53gn of pyrodex p and a round ball. I could barely get the ball all the way down. Put bees wax and olive oil lube over top and shot 3 cylinders like that. Didn't hurt anything dare I say it shot good. Zero leading and no damage to the gun. I'm going to bring my beater gun "pieta 1858 sheriff" and do the same test with 2f 777 tomorrow. If I don't die I'll let you know.

 

[rodwha]

Maybe a Ruger Old Army or replica of a Colt Dragoon may be more adept for 1000 fps from a conical.

According to the P-Max Swiss powder ballistics calculator an 8” Remington/Colt should be able to achieve over 1000 fps with my 195 grn WFN bullets that’s merely 0.460” long and a 37.5 grn charge of 3F sporting grade powder. Mine has a 5.5” barrel and it shows 938 fps and a tad over another 100 fps with an 8” barrel, which seems rather high to me, but is what it calculates.

https://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-195C

https://www.p-max.uk/cgi-bin/black_powder.cgi

 

[muzzleloadingat18]

A Walker load in a 58 Remington and using Pyrodex?

You literally can't blow them up. Now you can put more wear on the guns but you won't blow one up. I have enough cap and balls that I actually tested this. 50gn of pyrodex with a 200gn hammered down on top of it. No lube to increase pressure. Didn't blow up. Shot it with home made meal powder and it didn't blow up. I have filled the cylinder to the top smoothed it off and seated a ball. Nothing has ever blown up. And the only thing to break was the retainer for the loading lever. Which is very common.

 

[muzzleloadingat18]

But have you done it? Lots of Urban Legend stuff you can read. In a 47 Walker that is going to be well over 1000 FPS. Ruger may handle it but what is the point if its a wild load or you lead up the bore?

Ok. Did a max load in my 58 ubirty 8in and got 1147fps. On the next shot with my .50 single shot pistol I center punched my Chrono so no more data.

 

[smoothshooter]

The base of that bullet should be rebated and will drop into the chamber mouth a couple tenths of an inch. It should be pretty darn straight at that point. Some people load off the gun, others use the ram on the gun with good results. This bullet can be very accurate.

Ditch the Bore Butter ar any other lube

I’m attempting to find the maximum load for an 8 inch Pietta 44 caliber 1858 Remington using the Kerr bullet from Erasgone, and also wondering about historic loadings

Would it be possible to use the Kerr bullet over 35 grains of 3F? What about 40? Or is 30 all that would fit? I would be using either triple 7 or Swiss.

What load would historically been used in paper cartridges?

Would it be safe to use 4F or Swiss 0b? Is it even possible to find Swiss 0b? I doubt that would be safe in an original, but what about these modern reproductions? Generally 4F is for priming only, but I wonder…

My goal, if possible, is to get a Kerr to 1,000 feet per second or better.

I should provide context. My entry in to the world of cap and ball has 3 main reasons: 1: fun, it is a lot of fun 2: possible use in cowboy action and 3 (The main one): as a backup in a no ammo scenario. I still remember the last panic and the empty ammo shelves and damn near $2 a round for 9mm plinking rounds, and it’s still not entirely over as prices are still not quite back to pre panic levels. What if that happens again, and what if the ammo does not come back (I’ll leave the reason up to you), how do I get ammo? Well I do reload, but to this day finding primers is not simple and I categorically refuse to pay $90-$100+ for a box of 1,000, and during a panic powder is an issue getting too, as are casings, and bullets. I see cap and ball as a work around, I can mold my own bullets from scrap lead, I don’t need casings, and if I really have to I can make my own percussion caps too (and they will not sell out right away like everything else, though they eventually do), so they are a way to keep shooting. Also, should the time ever come when I am even out of my defensive ammo they are something that I can carry, that’s mostly my reasoning to find the max load, close range defense, and at 1,000+ feet per second (or even close) a heavy conical like a kerr would rival even some modern ammo for power.

Why the Kerr? Because conicals are better and the Kerr is the only historical bullet that will fit all the modern reproductions (the Johnson and Dow is close but there are some that even it won’t fit).

Ditch the Bore Butter or any other lube over the chamber mouths. Use lubed felt wads over the powder only. Grease does not prevent chain fires.

I’m attempting to find the maximum load for an 8 inch Pietta 44 caliber 1858 Remington using the Kerr bullet from Erasgone, and also wondering about historic loadings

Would it be possible to use the Kerr bullet over 35 grains of 3F? What about 40? Or is 30 all that would fit? I would be using either triple 7 or Swiss.

What load would historically been used in paper cartridges?

Would it be safe to use 4F or Swiss 0b? Is it even possible to find Swiss 0b? I doubt that would be safe in an original, but what about these modern reproductions? Generally 4F is for priming only, but I wonder…

My goal, if possible, is to get a Kerr to 1,000 feet per second or better.

I should provide context. My entry in to the world of cap and ball has 3 main reasons: 1: fun, it is a lot of fun 2: possible use in cowboy action and 3 (The main one): as a backup in a no ammo scenario. I still remember the last panic and the empty ammo shelves and damn near $2 a round for 9mm plinking rounds, and it’s still not entirely over as prices are still not quite back to pre panic levels. What if that happens again, and what if the ammo does not come back (I’ll leave the reason up to you), how do I get ammo? Well I do reload, but to this day finding primers is not simple and I categorically refuse to pay $90-$100+ for a box of 1,000, and during a panic powder is an issue getting too, as are casings, and bullets. I see cap and ball as a work around, I can mold my own bullets from scrap lead, I don’t need casings, and if I really have to I can make my own percussion caps too (and they will not sell out right away like everything else, though they eventually do), so they are a way to keep shooting. Also, should the time ever come when I am even out of my defensive ammo they are something that I can carry, that’s mostly my reasoning to find the max load, close range defense, and at 1,000+ feet per second (or even close) a heavy conical like a kerr would rival even some modern ammo for power.

Why the Kerr? Because conicals are better and the Kerr is the only historical bullet that will fit all the modern reproductions (the Johnson and Dow is close but there are some that even it won’t fit).

Don’t lose any sleep over powder charges. It is impossible to overload a percussion revolver.

 

[Smokerr]

Didn't hurt anything dare I say it shot good.

What was the range, how many shots, what size group?

 

[muzzleloadingat18]

What was the range, how many shots, what size group?

Best it has done is 2in at 20 yards from a rest. I know it's not pinpoint acuret but it's what I can do with the pistol. I can do better with my ruger 45 my hauze 44 mag and my hauze 357. So I believe that the gun is the limiting factor. I have gotten better loads for it. But it's by no means inaccurate. Within 50 yards I promise you a human is not safe. I say human because I would by no means recommend it for a hunting load it's just not what I would feel comfortable with. Now 25 30 yards yes. In civil war context plenty plenty acuret and more than enough power.

 

[muzzleloadingat18]

What was the range, how many shots, what size group?

Standard 6 shot group not a speck of leading in the bore after 3 cylinders.

 

[rodwha]

You literally can't blow them up. Now you can put more wear on the guns but you won't blow one up. I have enough cap and balls that I actually tested this. 50gn of pyrodex with a 200gn hammered down on top of it. No lube to increase pressure. Didn't blow up. Shot it with home made meal powder and it didn't blow up. I have filled the cylinder to the top smoothed it off and seated a ball. Nothing has ever blown up. And the only thing to break was the retainer for the loading lever. Which is very common.

I sent some very heavy but short bullets I designed with very long driving bands for my Ruger as a Ruger-only type projectile (it weighs 285 grns and is barely longer than Lee’s 255 grn bullet). A guy loaded his Walker up with a max charge of 52 grns of Pyrodex P and it blew his chamber wall completely gone. Thankfully he wasn’t injured and was able to find another cylinder.

https://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-285C

 

[muzzleloadingat18]

I sent some very heavy but short bullets I designed with very long driving bands for my Ruger as a Ruger-only type projectile (it weighs 285 grns and is barely longer than Lee’s 255 grn bullet). A guy loaded his Walker up with a max charge of 52 grns of Pyrodex P and it blew his chamber wall completely gone. Thankfully he wasn’t injured and was able to find another cylinder.

https://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-285C

then I'll change my statement a tiny bit. You can't blow up a cap and ball with a 200gn or lighter projectile. I wasn't accounting for custom molds. Im actually designing an accurate mold right now. Excited to get it. Tho that is kinda scary because I've shot 250gn flat nose in my pieta on top of 45 gn. And I can say that based on the recoil you can tell it's pushing it a bit.

 

[SPQR70AD]

I sent some very heavy but short bullets I designed with very long driving bands for my Ruger as a Ruger-only type projectile (it weighs 285 grns and is barely longer than Lee’s 255 grn bullet). A guy loaded his Walker up with a max charge of 52 grns of Pyrodex P and it blew his chamber wall completely gone. Thankfully he wasn’t injured and was able to find another cylinder.

https://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-285C

I loaded 50 grains in my Walker many times when I was younger and dumber and never had a problem

 

[45D]

I gotta say, it's funny to see folks trying to blow up their bp cylinders with heavy bullets and not one post about "if I wanted to do that I'd just buy me a Ruger BH and be done with it !"

Mike

 

[SPQR70AD]

I gotta say, it's funny to see folks trying to blow up their bp cylinders with heavy bullets and not one post about "if I wanted to do that I'd just buy me a Ruger BH and be done with it !"

Mike

people have blown up ruger BH trying to go over magnum specs

 

[45D]

people have blown up ruger BH trying to go over magnum specs

You can EASILY go over mag loads with appropriate Rugers, the ones that blow up are WAY OVER mag loads. I shoot 220gr/230gr (jacketed no less!) at 1000fps + with my '60 Armys and 250gr's at 1000fps in my Dragoons as norm !! No problem . . .
Definitely wouldn't trust a rechambered bp cyl.

Mike

 

[SPQR70AD]

You can EASILY go over mag loads with appropriate Rugers, the ones that blow up are WAY OVER mag loads. I shoot 220gr/230gr (jacketed no less!) at 1000fps + with my '60 Armys and 250gr's at 1000fps in my Dragoons as norm !! No problem . . .
Definitely wouldn't trust a rechambered bp cyl.

Mike

you are getting some wicked velocities

 

[45D]

you are getting some wicked velocities

If you look back at basically all of my posts, I don't shoot bp. All my "favorite" revolvers are bp but in unmentionable form.

Mike

 

[rodwha]

I loaded 50 grains in my Walker many times when I was younger and dumber and never had a problem

But not under a very heavy for it’s length bullet designed to create long driving bands. It only took one attempt to shoot one for it destroy his cylinder. The long driving bands create additional pressure, something a Ruger can handle all day long, and created so as to help bring up the velocity of what I thought would be a small powder charge. I was wrong, I can get 35 grns under it easily. 285 grns is a lot of lead.

 

[rodwha]

I gotta say, it's funny to see folks trying to blow up their bp cylinders with heavy bullets and not one post about "if I wanted to do that I'd just buy me a Ruger BH and be done with it !"

Mike

Who’s trying to blow up their cylinders?

Well, the Old Army is essentially a Black Hawk…

 

[45D]

Who’s trying to blow up their cylinders?

Well, folks compressing 50+gr in a Remington chamber? How about 80+ in a Walker? Not that I really care . . . I was just comparing the "suggestions" I get sometimes when I offer info about 45acp+'s from my '60 Army's - "I'd just get a _ _ _ _ _ if I wanted to do that . . .

Nothing ill against you.
Mike