Maybe the end of an era...what'll be the effects?

[roundball]

The Thompson / Center Arms company has arguably had a larger influence on / done more for our country's traditional leaning muzzleloader hunters since 1970, than the influence from any other single ML company.

Personally, its been disappointing to see the modern ML craze siphon off the bulk of ML hunters to the point where T/C's sidelock business is about shut down now. They began discontinuing the bulk of their sidelock models in the late 90's to only their Hawken and Renegade models. And have gradually stopped production on the .45/.54/.58cal versions of the Hawken as well, now only offering it in .50cal.
The Fox Ridge store of course went by the way side a few years ago too.

Seems a huge void will exist for any sort of high volume production of sidelocks, with even businesses like TVM being very few and far between, with disappointingly long wait times...and the wait times for the few private builders are usually as bad or worse.

The market volume demand for traditional styled muzzleloaders has gone away or T/C would still leading the charge...but the declining market forced production volumes to go away...then the reduced availability of affordable mass produced sidelocks further contributes to the situation where if they're not available, the majority of new hunter/shooters are forced to buy a "modern muzzleloader"...a huge "catch-22".

None of all this is attractive to new potential shooters / hunters...so what is our muzzleloading hobby / sport going to look like another 10 years from now? 15 years? 20 years?

 

[wattlebuster]

Mighty slim. If things keep going like they are then we wont even be able to shoot our smokepoles by then for we will breaking some idiot politicians law be it a ordinace against noise,smoke,lead. By then anything that goes bang im sure will be outlawed. I know this is a very bleak way of looking at things but when you look at what we have for politicians an lawyers then a bleak future is all I see.

 

[Trench]

I think you'll see traditional shooting stronger in certain regions than others. In Indiana we have the NMLRA and no shortage of "period" festivals around the state.

However, none of that matters if the one thing the hobby centers around isn't available any more.
Also, there my be trouble in the future for those of us who like to dress up and equip ourselves. Sadly, there aren't many in my generation or certainly the generation after me that know how to "do" anything. We will also probably start to see vendors and skilled sutlers starting to disappear....at least until the next resurgance. Did anyone really know that things were going to take off like they did in the Davy Crockett movie days? We'll just have to get out there and enjoy our hobby while we can and see what happens.

 

[necchi]

Ya really need to go to a Rendezvous,, :grin: We'er gonna be just fine,
T/C slowing down is no surprise,,the top dollar their asking and the slow economy is a poor mix for lot's of companies

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Lyman has taken the market share that T/C used to have, and Pedersoli is just behind them! When I can still buy a .72 cal. Double Rifle, a Rocky Mountain Hawken, or a Lyman GPR at Cabela's or mail-order them (where allowed), I'm not ready to concede defeat just yet!

I KNOW that you're in love with your T/C's, and hate for the company to loose market share, but the Earth doesn't revolve around T/C. The chicken & egg concept comes into play as well....if they started running print ads in the national magazines showing how much fun and accurate their sidelocks actually are, I bet it might turn a few heads towards that direction.

I'm very happy with my Lyman Trade Rifle, and I cut (3) playing cards in half with it last Saturday! Won the wood-chopping competition with it the same day! Lots of folks shootin' the old fashioned smoke poles. We even invited the Zip Guns, and NONE showed-up! Therefore I see a bright future for sidelocks in NJ!

Dave

 

[hanshi]

Our hobby is always going to be an up and down thing; it always has been. David Crockett and Daniel Boone inspired our generation and perhaps inspiration will repeat itself. If we can reel in our government from the open pit of fascism, begin EDUCATING instead of INDOCTRINATING our youth and stop this senseless tiptoeing around Islamic fanaticism, then maybe, just maybe our Constitution will prevail and our liberty maintain.

 

[BrownBear]

Talking to shops, I get the impression that the market for "modern" muzzleloaders is capping out. Guys buy one, shoot it 6 times a year and put it in the closet. There's little room for growth in the modern market now, and the guys who sell the stuff are starting to stock less, as well as to feel that there will be fewer new ones on the market. The market is also flooded with used ones as guys get into it, and either don't like it or move on to traditional if they get really hooked.

Most of these "pros" blame TC's declining fortunes on the new ownership, as has happened with lots of gun manufacturers. The traditional values and products have gone by the wayside in the rush to find ways to keep their market share growing.

Specific to TC, their market share in traditional will continue to shrink as people go elsewhere to feed their interests, even if they first bought a TC. Get real excited about traditional muzzleloading and want to do more after shooting your TC, whatchagonnado? Buy ANOTHER 50 cal Hawken?

I'm betting Persoli takes over from Lyman simply because they have more to sell and make better guns than Traditions at any price. Got your 50 cal GPR and maybe a spare 54 cal barrel, if not a second GPR? Your contribution to the "growth" of muzzleloading isn't going to happen at TC or Lyman. You're either going to Pedersoli or a custom.

 

[roundball]

I KNOW that you're in love with your T/C's, and hate for the company to loose market share, but the Earth doesn't revolve around T/C.

You completely missed the point.

The post has nothing to do with my having used T/Cs for a lot of years...I've sold most of them and now spend my time with various Virginia fullstocks.

 

[cougarmagnum]

Have you seen how many "modern muzzleloaders" are for sale? Guys are getting too lazy even with those guns. Same thing is happening with "modern crossbows" in my area at least! I'm in Pennsyltucky. Seems like the modern stuff is reaching a pleateu. Hang in there, Keep new people educated. They will learn the lesson, I've made several converts and have been thanked for it!

 

[Stumpkiller]

Evolution can't occur until a niche opens. Hopefully some U.S. company will see a need and fill it. I like my T/C firearms very much, but I am also mad that they "occupied the pot" and never did get around to producing a good traditional rifle.

Think of a light Pennsylvania or Tennessee Rifle produced at Fox Ridge?

Oh, for what might have been.

On the other hand. Because T/C and other mass-producers failed us there are now a LOT of custom shops and smiths who can and build one-off or short run custom muzzleloaders. T/C helped create that market by not making anything similar.

 

[roundball]

"...Hopefully some U.S. company will see a need and fill it..."

And that's really the concern...like T/C's declining production, I don't see ANY other US company with a different trend...I know there are some die hard Lyman fans but with all due respect I don't see or hear where Lyman is growing / expanding, or certainly not on the scale this post is about.

Regarding the catch-22 reference, IMO something will have to jolt a wave of demand that a company will respond to, or some company will have to launch a massive sidelock marketing campaign to create a demand...like Knight did with the MK85 campaign...but I have no confidence that any of the remaining small players have enough solid footing that they're going to shake up the market place.

I'm sure a rendezvous can seem like a good size activity but its really nothing...they consist of people already into traditional...and the attendance is not representative at all of the other hunter headcount on a national scale who would consider getting into traditional oriented sidelock shooting / hunting if companies (ie: T/C, Pedersoli, Lyman, etc) were pumping them out so they were in racks at gun stores for touch & feel, to spark an interest, etc. For example, we participate on this forum (like a rendezvous) and think its a lot of people...but in terms of real shooter / hunter potential numbers across the whole country, we're but a grain of sand on a beach in that regard...99.x% don't even know the place exists.

Catch 22.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Problem is that TC has also priced it's sidelocks so high. I bought my first TC rifle in 1977 for $119.00 at a Woolco store.

Perhaps part of the high cost stems from their life time gurantee, which would not have been necessary had they used a quality flint lock on those models. Instead of guys braggin about how great the warranty is because they have sent the locks back for repair and replacement five times. To me that shows a defect, that should have been corrected in the 1970's.

In the 1980's CVA was hard to beat. Even made some guns here in the US.

RMC couldn't stay in business for a variety of reasons.

A buddy and I thought about making a bare bones flint rifle for sale, but even wholesale parts would run us $270 a gun.

 

[Vtsmoker]

I would never been able to join this sport/addiction were it not for "production guns". My cabellas hawkin and traditions kentucky were both around $400. Sounds very inexpensive compared to a custom but for me thats almost a weeks pay. I think our sport will suffer greatly if the production level guns go away or as i've seen lately the price goes up because of a shortage of suppliers.

 

[Stumpkiller]

No question. I started with a T/C Renegade cap, then a Seneca cap, then a Hawken flint another Renegade cap and later a 12 bore & .50 cal. New Englander cap. Still have the latter two. In 1976 we bought Hawkens style because that was what everyone was doing - buckskinning. If T/C had come along sooner we'd probably have been following along with Fess Parker and shooting longrifles of Daniel Boone, Davey Crockett.

We are better informed overall now that the general populace of the 1970's. Companies like T/C HAVE to appeal to the general populace or they can't justify the tool-up. I don't blame T/C for selling what they do now. That's where the market is.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

I KNOW that you're in love with your T/C's, and hate for the company to loose market share, but the Earth doesn't revolve around T/C.

You completely missed the point.

The post has nothing to do with my having used T/Cs for a lot of years...I've sold most of them and now spend my time with various Virginia fullstocks.

I beg to disagree. I did not completely miss your point. In fact, I thought that I answered it quite well. Just edit-out the line that you chose to quote, and the rest of my response still stands up. Lyman and Pedersoli continue to make money selling sidelocks. And Cabela's has them on the sales floor for demonstration at their Hamburg PA store. The warehouse behind the gun counter has lots of sidelocks.

Dave

 

[Vaino]

Companies exist to make money and if the demand is there, they'll produce whatever sells. TC in spite of their lifelong warranty, quality products and excellent customer service isn't offering MLers w/ competitive prices probably because of higher priced American labor and many Americans buy "cheap" and not only w/ MLers but lower priced, foreign made autos and a plethora of other foreign goods. We complain about China but still buy their products because they're cheaper. There will always be people that are interested in the various aspects of MLing...the number will fluctuate but will never be very large because there are many pursuits and pastimes which compete for our leisure time. It seems the younger generation isn't "buying into our mindset" which makes sense because of all the other things to do. The demise of companies that produce MLers doesn't portend the end of MLing, just that these companies produce products that don't meet the criteria of the buyers. Let's face it...many companies have lousy managements.....Fred

 

[buzz]

had to T/C both used got them both via trades shot one of them the other got rid of it fast as i could
now that said
production gun is just that production gun
T/C lymann and pedersoli and i think traditional shooters prefer traditional guns and for the same money or with in reason folks are choosing semi and custom rifle more and more
lymann and T/C might be decent smoke poles they are not hc/pc in anyway shape of form
as far as a hobby or sport im seeing lots of young folks in black powder in its many forms but i do see less fully atuned reinactors and this is mostly folks dont have nuch extra
i think as shooting goes the hobby is solid but reinacting wull have ups and downs

 

[shortstring]

...so what is our muzzleloading hobby / sport going to look like another 10 years from now? 15 years? 20 years?

I like to think that there's hope that once again a traditional roundball gun will be admired and gain in popularity. Just think where traditional archery was in say 1980 or so. You'd be lucky to sell a long bow at a yard sale for much of anything back then. It's possible that once again true sports men & women will grasp the challenge of the round ball & it will shine again. It needs a spark or start, sort of a snob appeal where people who chose the round ball are looked up to much in the way that trad. archers are looked upon as the ultimate archers. Don't ask me what it takes to get this rolling but we can at least hope.

Paul

 

[rafterob]

Maybe what we need is a Modern Blockbuster movie in the trend of "Jerimiah Johnson"-look what it did for the sport in the '70s. So if the consortium of Manufacturers, marketers and importers put up 100 million for such a movie, maybe they just might make their money back :shake:

 

[Norinco]

On the bright side, more and more people are buying guns. Sooner or later, they will decide to try out blackpowder