Maybe the end of an era...what'll be the effects?

[Stumpkiller]

We had The Patriot and Last of the Mohicans. Except for the silk shooting 30 yards farther pretty good flicks.

 

[Poor Private]

It's the same way in civl war, events are fewer, and smaller attendance to them. Spectators still seem to be coming to them though. Alot of people are hoping that the 150th cycle will give an increase in reenactors. BUT alot of us(not me) baby boomers are trying to hold out for the 150th then retire from the field afterwards. So it's just a wait and see.

 

[tg]

For many years TC and others sold us a mix of the modern and the old and it slowly morphed into the modern as this is what the market supported, perhaps had this media been around then a shift of interest and an education potential could hace changed the market preferences as it is we have the proverbial trying to close the door after all the cows have ran off and one wanting a reliable halfway traditional ML is going to have to spend more than most entry level centerfires, not a good way to keep tradition alive I would say.The time for a change has come and gone and we all saw it happen probably not realy believing what the end result would be, so here we are.

 

[roundball]

"...one wanting a reliable halfway traditional ML is going to have to spend more than most entry level centerfires, not a good way to keep tradition alive..."

PLUS...there just aren't any casually available anywhere for John Q. Public to stop in, look at, handle, shoulder, compare, learn, etc...and you know the old saying: "Out of sight, out of mind"

 

[zimmerstutzen]

July 2013 will be the 150th anniv of the Battle of Gettysburg. I figure a good movie ought to be coming out about the same time and all things civil war will have a wave of popularity.

I'd really like to see a movie about Dan'l Morgans company of Riflemen and tim Murphy shooting the general. That one shot did alot to win the rev war.

 

[necchi]

I think this is all "much too do about nothing"

We've always been a small nich group when compared to the general population and we'll continue to be just that.

I came to this hobby quite unaware of other groups or even individuals that did follow Trad Ml's, I simply grew weary of the lack of challange and sport with CF guns. I enjoyed the hobby and pass time for 15 years before I even heard of a Rendezvous, now after nearly 10 years in the vous' circut I see new people every year.

There's no "Doom's day" looming for the Traditional firearms nor the hobby.

Look at it this way,,There can only be so many members of any given population that are fruitcakes,,and I'm happy I've found rondyvoos and web sites like this where most of us can hang out and enjoy the commrodrie,, :thumbsup:

 

[hanshi]

Maybe so. When I got into muzzleloaders in the mid 1960s I knew of no one else using bp. It was decades before I saw one in the hands of a shooter. Now, I know several and have met & seen other bp shooters at rendezvous. Even have a hunting partner who's a rabid flinter.

 

[BrownBear]

Bottom line, if as indicated here no one is willing to pay new prices for TC, I don't see any reason for them to stay in the business.

Sayanara TC traditional.

 

[msuspartan]

You have a huge point in that we will not go away. The way to get new people is to be seen. Indiana has a small problem of small regional groups and no State organization (a problem that I am currently working on) and that getting the word out has always cost too much.

Even though a company stops making a specific product there will ALWAYS be another to fill the gap. That is the way business works. I have a T/C and love my rifle. I would hate to see them stop but there are always other companies with good product and when the time comes, a custom rifle.

Cheers, DonK

 

[roundball]

"...if as indicated here no one is willing to pay new prices for TC, I don't see any reason for them to stay in the business..."

Couldn't agree more from the business aspect of that...and the greater question was as the market opportunities for mass produced MLs continues to shrink, the less of them are available, the less they are seen, the less get bought, interest in traditional continues to decline, etc, etc. Companies don't drop product lines unless they become unprofitable due to market loss...and T/C has held on longer than some during the past 10 years...their decline in traditionals just raised a question about the future...

 

[BrownBear]

I'm with you.

But even here among the anointed, I don't see a single person on this thread advocating to buy new, much less announcing their recent purchase of new or plans to do so.

At this point, I can't figure out who is buying a new TC Hawken or is likely to do it.

Sad. Seems like when a company is so great, the anointed would pony up. :shake:

 

[ldykeman]

I think part of the huge popularity of traditional muzzleloaders years ago was due to the implementation of special muzzleloading only hunting seasons. For example, here in NY, muzzleloading season originally mandated the use of patched round balls only, and no optics. I, myself, originally bought into this sport due to the expanded hunting season. Human nature being what it is, people/manufacturers started trying to improve/modernize/simplify the process of using a muzzleloader. Hence, the polypatch, substitute powders, rifle primer adapters, speed loaders, and so forth. I think the shift to the "modern" muzzleloader was a natural evolution of this process. Just making it appear easier for the person who is not a true muzzleloading enthuiast, and just wants a longer or earlier hunting season with the least amount of effort as possible. This natural progression of so-called "progress" led to the changes in hunting restrictions. NYS eventually changed the law to allow elongated projectiles and optics in muzzleloading season. So, in the end we have the majority of consumers (who by and large are not traditional muzzleloading enthusiasts) dictating the demand for non-traditional products.
As an aside, I currently know of no other hunter in my area that used a traditional muzzleloader. When they see what I am using (one of my T/C Renegades), they are quite puzzled as to why I would use this type of firearm.
Likewise, there has been pressure on our state's DEC to allow crossbows in archery season. I bet that a good many compound bow users will embrace the crossbow if the law is changed. I am not being judgemental on this issue, I just think it is human nature.
Larry

 

[roundball]

"...part of the huge popularity of traditional muzzleloaders years ago was due to the implementation of special muzzleloading only hunting seasons..."

Excellent point...there was an incentive...an attraction...but as soon as the flood gates opened allowing in the modern centerfire-like MLs, most folks dropped the sidelocks...which led to the market decline and the manufacturer's shift to moderns instead of traditional...ie: T/C now sports an impressive array of moderns. And the bad news now is that generations of new hunters have entered muzzleloader hunting every year for the past 20+ years thinking that modern scoped sighted MLs are the norm, and that they represent what is meant by the term "muzzleloading".

 

[omarick1948]

Here is another opinion fella's!...Before a bunch of states had special muzzleloading deer and other game season's and before many of you were born. The movie "Jeremiah Johnson (1972)" started to spur the mountainman in a lot of us, but then add our nation's Bi-Centennial celebration in 1976 opened the interests and market for black powder muzzleloading reproduction guns and nationwide enthusiasm for American history!

Enters, companies like Navy Arms and others including T/C. These companies jumped on the band wagon and made available about every shape, type and size of muzzleloading gun, from Pocket pistols to cannons, that people wanted! I can remember when the T/C Hawken rifle was called a piece of junk by the then "Who's Who" of muzzle loading, mainly because of the name T/C gave their rifle. Some of you old members, including myself, joined and subscribed to a magazine out in Big Timber, Montana, that constantly condemned the T/C HAWKEN rifle's popularity, but many of those "OLD BOYS", wouldn't admit it, but got their start shooting one of those T/C Hawken rifles!

Like they say guy's!..It's all about money! I think that we need to declare another national year long celebration every couple of years to help the people and show those Tupperware M/L'r shooters what traditional muzzle loading is all about!

Rick

 

[Coot]

Good points. And well before the JJ movie, there was a big interest in the 100th aniv. of the (American) Civil War and the introduction of black powder arms by Navy Arms. My first BP gun was back in the early 60s - a Colt 51 Navy repo from Navy Arms.
IF there is a demand, a manufacturer will step forward. Much of the expansion in "muzzleloading" came from hunters whose interest was in a longer season and not the guns themselves. Marketing in-lines as easier & more reliable to use, many manufacturers both expanded their markets and cut costs as these guns could be made on much of the same tooling as their regular centerfires. I certainly go along with the idea that the lack of sidelocks and real BP in the majority of shops will serve as a major discouragement - the uninformed can hardly be blamed for thinking that BP guns must not be much good if no one is offering them.

 

[roundball]

Some updates to your timeline:

The NMLRA was formed in 1933 and the national movement began, long before those movie dates you mentioned;

Special muzzleloader seasons started earlier;

T/C started in 1967, production volumes of the Hawken began in 1970.

 

[hanshi]

Yes. You know not only did a longer season spur the modern ML fad but the fact that too many hunters aren't interested in challenging themselves compounded the problem. All they want is to bring home a deer the easiest and quickest way possible. Instead of "hunters", the woods were full of "shooters". The modern ML group tends to view muzzleloaders in the same light as a modern single shot cartridge rifle. They have no connection with the history or the HUNTING culture.

 

[Vtsmoker]

Hanshi...Dead center bullseye on that!! :thumbsup:

 

[shortstring]

It should be said that the special seasons weren't brought about for the true ML enthusiast. We already used MLs during the regular season. The seasons just created a good market. Same thing that's happening with the crossbow, although if you were a true enthusiast of the CB there isn't any season for you to use it in many states.

On another thought, the wheels are turning that will take lead out of the shooting sports. One ruling by big brothers EPA & our little world will, well who knows what will happen. Possibly some substitute for lead will materialize for a round ball.

 

[Vaino]

I disagree that hunters using "modern MLers" are somehow lesser hunters...they're out there the same as the trads, aren't they? Some hunters are into the guns and some hunters are into hunting irregardless of the rifle used, but both are hunting because it's their sport. Denigrating one group of hunters because they choose to hunt w/ a gun that's different than ours doesn't do the hunting cause any good whatsover. We've got enough dissension in the ranks because of nitpicking over whether a rifle is HC/PC, whether a TH liner is proper and all the other "issues" that cause people to voice their narrow views. I build and prefer HC/PC LRs but don't think that others who prefer something different are "bad guys" that don't deserve to be on our level. If I were to meet a hunter using a "scoped" inline in the woods, should I consider him "scum" which is what some would label him if they got the chance? He's probably a nice guy enjoying his sport. People buying "modern" Mlers aren't the cause of the small numbers of trads...we'll always be a small minority because of various innate reasons ....Fred