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Middlesex Village Trading
- Thread starter rb8941
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Rick, search previous pages of this forum and the Smoothbore forum for Middlesex Village threads. There are a number of them dealing with the quality of the guns sold by this company.
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rb8941 said:
You need ask?
Consider the possibilities.
Bottom level MLs have had a rep for "problems" for as long as I can remember.
Using tubing (DOM or otherwise) for barrels is a no-no. It has serious "problems" for use in gun barrels. Gun barrels are not hydraulic systems or steam pipes. Ask any barrel maker or metallurgist.
I would love to know what "big names" use DOM for gun barrels.
One of these imports blew up with a BLANK, wake up people.
Dan
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I just read through all of those links to and about MVTC. The vast majority of them are positive. The most common criticism of the guns is fit and finish and a heavy trigger. It seems that most of the posters dealt with those issues and are now happy with the firearms.
I just received one of their SXS caplock pistols. I have no qualms about using it; the trigger needs work.
Pete
I just received one of their SXS caplock pistols. I have no qualms about using it; the trigger needs work.
Pete
rafterob
62 Cal.
Just curious as to where you get the info their barrels are made fron Tubing? I had not read that before.
I questioned Pete about barrel materials a year or so back and he told me they were DOM tubing. This tubing should not be confused with HREW tubing that is resistance welded and is definitely not barrel material. Most of the commercial barrels for muzzleloaders are 12L14, which is leaded steel that is free machining so that cutter life is extended. Modern center fire barrels if not one of the stainless steels are 4140 and much tougher to work than the leaded stock. The A513 DOM tubing is somewhere in the middle of these two materials as far as workability goes. Any of these materials are far superior to the forge welded iron barrels of the original guns, which by the way were NOT seamless in their construction.
They also are bringing a new gun to the market; a wheel lock horse pistol.
They also are bringing a new gun to the market; a wheel lock horse pistol.
nkvd said:Hello All
I hear what you are saying about the hydraulic tubing but why then are the almost as much as the Iti made weapons
Cheers,Rob
Profit margin?
All the market will bear??
"These suckers will buy anything"??
People who buy these things are woefully uninformed and will apparently buy anything that is allowed a mock battles.
The Perdersoli stuff runs 1000 to 1400 bucks for a musket. The indian made pipes are 600-800.
At least the Pedersoli muskets are proved in a gov't proof house...
Dan
The Indians, in truth are capable of great quality at a most modest price. Log Cabin Shop used to sell hand forged mainsprings for Siler locks. Perfect and finished. I couldn't finish one for he price. Flawless. Made in India.
TOF sells a handforged T.G. An almost an xact copy of the Bean cast guard that's been offered for 30 years. It sells for less than the casting. And the workmanship is perfect. I bought one.
I have no idea, but I'll eat my shorts if this is'nt made in India. That being said....
Not even the Indians can make a quality musket for $800. Remember excise and manufacturng taxes and middlemen and many shippings add greatly to the cost. Our custom stuff is a bargain.
A Pedersoli Brown Bess, by contrast, is tough as nails, authentic , and gives vast years of fun and reliable service. If you've used one of these, you're not going to be interested in an $800 job.
TOF sells a handforged T.G. An almost an xact copy of the Bean cast guard that's been offered for 30 years. It sells for less than the casting. And the workmanship is perfect. I bought one.
I have no idea, but I'll eat my shorts if this is'nt made in India. That being said....
Not even the Indians can make a quality musket for $800. Remember excise and manufacturng taxes and middlemen and many shippings add greatly to the cost. Our custom stuff is a bargain.
A Pedersoli Brown Bess, by contrast, is tough as nails, authentic , and gives vast years of fun and reliable service. If you've used one of these, you're not going to be interested in an $800 job.
No kidding so in Italy you can just stamp a proof mark on a gun and ship it off??? Silly me I thought the proof laws applied to ALL the guns made and the Gov't proof house stamped them only after they had passed proof.Uncle Pig said:
You know what, so does PEDERSOLI!!! Geez just think of the time and effort they could save if they knew what you know.
:rotf: :rotf: :rotf:
I think you need to read this. http://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-resu...li_proof_rules_and_allowable_limits_09-04.htm
It states in part:
********
Pedersoli & Co. like all Italian firearms manufacturers, is required by law, to have every firearm proof tested at the Italian National Proof House in Gardone Italy.
********
So you have names and dates to go with the Italian gun that burst with a blank or you just passing on rumor?
Anything is possible of course but we need some documentation before lumping the reasonably well made Italian guns into the same pile as the Indian made "guns".
Dan
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Not trying to pick any fights but IIRC in the last couple of years there has been 1 of each Italian and Indian muskets exploded and both were with blank charges and also IIRC both were ruled to have had bore obstructions. So I guess it is 1 for the Italians and 1 for the Indians. Nobodys musket is "proofed" for a bore obstruction. I can see how easily a bore obstruction could have occurred with either musket. Falling and jamming the muzzle into the ground or a snow bank is just a couple of examples but in any case 2 have popped 1 proofed and 1 not. I have one of the Indian guns and it is sound. Proofed it myself with two double charges 140 grains of 2F and two patched RB's of .670 diameter. There were no dimensional changes to the barrel. No they are not up to Pedersoli's quality standards and require some lock tweaking to make them good shooters. No one questions GM, Rice, Colerain, DeHass, Numrich or any of the other US barrel makers as to WHY they do not proof test their muzzleloader barrels. I guess it's just a given that they never make a mistake or never get shipped a batch of stock that is just a little out of spec. In this litigious society I'm a little amazed that they don't proof every barrel with a fitted breech plug they send out and recommend that the owners proof their unbreeched barrels after having the plug fitted whether or not it is required by the government. :2
The Spec you cited is for their BPC Rifles
PEDERSOLI PROOF TESTING STATEMENT
All Pedersoli rifles are proof tested at the (Italian government) National Firing Proof House with smokeless powder cartridges with a pressure exceeding that of the ”˜commercial’ factory made ammunition by 30 %.
For the .45-70 caliber we normally recommend the use of commercially made ammunition because of it being easily available on the world market. We show here some warnings about C.I.P. rules:
This is just an excerpt read the whole spec for yourself.
The Spec you cited is for their BPC Rifles
PEDERSOLI PROOF TESTING STATEMENT
All Pedersoli rifles are proof tested at the (Italian government) National Firing Proof House with smokeless powder cartridges with a pressure exceeding that of the ”˜commercial’ factory made ammunition by 30 %.
For the .45-70 caliber we normally recommend the use of commercially made ammunition because of it being easily available on the world market. We show here some warnings about C.I.P. rules:
This is just an excerpt read the whole spec for yourself.
I used to think just the way you did.
Then about a year ago we had a large debate on the forum on prooffing.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/217920/post/531858/hl//fromsearch/1/
What was summarized was this:
"- No US or Canadian gun is proofed
- No Japanese gun is proofed
- No Indian Gun is proofed
- No South American Gun is proofed.
- Only Western European guns are proofed if they are to be sold as guns in Europe.
- Some High-end gun makers in the US will "Defarb" their products going so far as to add European proof marks to make the reproduction look like an original. Even if the weapon was not proofed.
- Proofing will not tell you if the gun will fail. All it will tell you is that it did not fail once, at the proofing.
- Many people swear that they will only use proofed weapons unless their "friend" made it then its safe.
- There are no international Proofing standards. In other words, it may have passed proofing in one country and could have failed in another."
As for Indian muskets blowing up please see this: http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/212833/fromsearch/1/tp/1/
Or this link: http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...d/220433/post/563332/hl//fromsearch/1/#563332
We have been over this several times on the forum. What happened to the one Indian gun appeared to be a fluke. And yes it has happend with Italian and japanese guns.
How many Indian guns have you personal witnessed blowing up? Or are you just listening to the internet? Many vendors of Italian guns bad mouth Indian guns just because they are cheaper. Personaly I would like to buy guns that are only made in America - but that aint going to happen any time soon.
Thanks,
Foster From Flint
Then about a year ago we had a large debate on the forum on prooffing.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/217920/post/531858/hl//fromsearch/1/
What was summarized was this:
"- No US or Canadian gun is proofed
- No Japanese gun is proofed
- No Indian Gun is proofed
- No South American Gun is proofed.
- Only Western European guns are proofed if they are to be sold as guns in Europe.
- Some High-end gun makers in the US will "Defarb" their products going so far as to add European proof marks to make the reproduction look like an original. Even if the weapon was not proofed.
- Proofing will not tell you if the gun will fail. All it will tell you is that it did not fail once, at the proofing.
- Many people swear that they will only use proofed weapons unless their "friend" made it then its safe.
- There are no international Proofing standards. In other words, it may have passed proofing in one country and could have failed in another."
As for Indian muskets blowing up please see this: http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/212833/fromsearch/1/tp/1/
Or this link: http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...d/220433/post/563332/hl//fromsearch/1/#563332
We have been over this several times on the forum. What happened to the one Indian gun appeared to be a fluke. And yes it has happend with Italian and japanese guns.
How many Indian guns have you personal witnessed blowing up? Or are you just listening to the internet? Many vendors of Italian guns bad mouth Indian guns just because they are cheaper. Personaly I would like to buy guns that are only made in America - but that aint going to happen any time soon.
Thanks,
Foster From Flint
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Dan Phariss said:
Foster,
Your posting the thread from last year does not answer Dan's question, and I'm very interested in that answer: "So you have names and dates to go with the Italian gun that burst with a blank or you just passing on rumor?"
Also, I believe you are still incorrect regarding the Italian proof law requirement - each and every barrel must be proof tested.
Here's a link to the H.P. White report. Draw your own conclusions but these people are used industry wide and not just for muzzle loaders. http://www.middlesexvillagetrading.com/special/HPWhiteReportWithPersonalInfoBlocked.pdf
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The longarms from MVTC don't cost between $600 and $800. Most cost between $500 and $600 with the most expensive one that I could find being $700, (flintlock DB shotgun), and the cheapest $399.
There has only been one confirmed kaboom from these muskets and from all indications and a professional examination it appears to have resulted from gross misuse and neglect.
In my novice opinion they aren't worth what they cost. I've only recently gotten into muzzleloaders, but I've been shooting and collecting everything from milsurps to airguns for decades now and after purchasing a MVTC Long Land Pattern Brown Bess about 8 months ago and tweaking and refinishing it until it shot right, I've got to say that it should have retailed for around $300 to $350 and not the $600 that it cost.
Of course I'd be inclined to say something similar about Pedersoli. I'd be willing to pay more for better fit, finish and workmanship, but IMO $1000 is way too much for a mass produced reproduction that doesn't have anything special going for it.
I'd kind of like to see the Chinese get into making them. In my experience they make a far better product than the Indians for a similar or lower price.
Now having admitted that I spent too much money, I also felt that I was always treated fairly and politely by MVTC. I'm sure they would lose money on every sale if they sold their muskets for what I think the price should be and I would do business with them again. I've had a great time shooting my Bess and I don't regret buying it at all. I just wish I'd spent less.
There has only been one confirmed kaboom from these muskets and from all indications and a professional examination it appears to have resulted from gross misuse and neglect.
In my novice opinion they aren't worth what they cost. I've only recently gotten into muzzleloaders, but I've been shooting and collecting everything from milsurps to airguns for decades now and after purchasing a MVTC Long Land Pattern Brown Bess about 8 months ago and tweaking and refinishing it until it shot right, I've got to say that it should have retailed for around $300 to $350 and not the $600 that it cost.
Of course I'd be inclined to say something similar about Pedersoli. I'd be willing to pay more for better fit, finish and workmanship, but IMO $1000 is way too much for a mass produced reproduction that doesn't have anything special going for it.
I'd kind of like to see the Chinese get into making them. In my experience they make a far better product than the Indians for a similar or lower price.
Now having admitted that I spent too much money, I also felt that I was always treated fairly and politely by MVTC. I'm sure they would lose money on every sale if they sold their muskets for what I think the price should be and I would do business with them again. I've had a great time shooting my Bess and I don't regret buying it at all. I just wish I'd spent less.
Yep, the Chinese have really come a long way with their airguns. They are stiff competetion for the low to mid priced euro guns. I own several of them and I agree they could probably do the same with muzzle loaders if they so chose.
The Chinese seem to have learned the basics of factory production and while I'd still expect a lot of cut corners with a Chinese muzzleloader, I would also expect a much greater degree of uniformity. The Chinese seem to cut corners by using soft wood for stocks, bad bluing and that awful stain/shellac finish that hides the lack of figure in the wood. They also leave lots of sharp edges and sometimes forget to tighten things properly. Their stocks are all properly inletted though, the metal is usually properly machined and generally everything looks like it built according to a plan and fits together properly.
Having disassembled everything on my Bess but the breechplug, I strongly suspect that it was made in someone's family workshop and was largely done with hand tools, (I'm envisioning something like a large barn with cast off shop tools from the 1950's and 5 or 6 family members as workers). Now a custom build can be a major selling point if the builder is a real craftsman with a reputation for excellence, but I seriously doubt that was the case here. Judging by some of the mistakes they made, I think they were churning them out as quickly as they could.
Having disassembled everything on my Bess but the breechplug, I strongly suspect that it was made in someone's family workshop and was largely done with hand tools, (I'm envisioning something like a large barn with cast off shop tools from the 1950's and 5 or 6 family members as workers). Now a custom build can be a major selling point if the builder is a real craftsman with a reputation for excellence, but I seriously doubt that was the case here. Judging by some of the mistakes they made, I think they were churning them out as quickly as they could.
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