Middlesex vs. Discriminating General The Same!

[palladius]

Jake, all I said was that MV sells working firearms--they drill the vent hole, DG does not. That is not in dispute, is it?

Part of DG's disclaimer:"We sell historically accurate muskets in a non-firing state...We are not legally responsible for any alteration from its present state."

MV also has a lifetime guarantee on their locks and works on their weapons. I am not aware of DG doing gunsmithing.

No, I don't have one of their repros. I recently thought of getting one but decided against it because it was an inaccurate reproduction of what I wanted. If it had been I probably would have.

 

[jakeinthelake]

Oh yes Bill. I did not comment on the post from BillnPatti. His comments were very helpful. He recognizes the levels people are at financially.

My original post was simply to say Middlesex Village Trading Muskets and Discriminating General Muskets come from the same factory. I put it up because the guys thought it was good info the consumers like me who buy Indian muskets.

Apple and PC have separate forums. Maybe Italian and Indian muskets should have be separate forum topics. A buddy went through 3 Pedersoli bess mainsprings in three years. However I don't see how it is important to figuring out what vendor sells what Indian musket. Make sense?

 

[palladius]

And my apologies to you if I've come off snarky. This is an imperfect medium of communication at best. I'm a defender of Indian muskets, as I have both an Indian and a custom gun.

 

[jakeinthelake]

Again my apologies Fusilier.

I drilled my DG bess. 5 minutes. But sure some people are afraid of a power drill so MVT can help them out. Good.

Firearms liability is with the guy pulling the trigger. So I personally like to know I drilled and fired it.

Look at the guy who wrecked his MVT Bess. Didn't help him any that MVT pre-drilled it. The owner misused it anyway.

The point. MV sells a double-barrel gun that looks pretty cool that obviously DG doesn't have the rights to. What I now know is when I buy from MV, I will get similar quality as the DG Bess I already own and like. DG = MVT

Same deal with Loyalist Arms and Veteran Arms. They both sell that same quality of product. LA = VA

BUT DG & MVT are not the same as LA & VA

Many like me just want the facts. Those are the facts. If you shop at DG, MVT, LA or VA then this is useful.

 

[Alden]

Jake;
With all due respect, you have no idea if what you are bleating holds any truth. And clearly the prism of little actual experience you view knowledgeable and skilled students and professors of this hobby through doesn't say much for your outlook nor your future here or afield.

OK, a salesperson told you something, you've seen somes blanks ignite in India-made "guns," everyone else is an idiot, and you've almost talked yourself out of buyer's regret. We've got it kid.

Anything else at this particular time?

 

[okawbow]

I certainly haven't handled very many Indian made guns, but it seems like some are lumping all Indian guns, past and present, into one group. That's like saying all European made guns past and present are top quality or junk, based on one or two examples. I sincerely hope the bias on Indian made guns is not based on racism. Some of the statements I read lead me to suspect that is the case.

Earlier this year, I bought a French Infantry musket from Veteran Arms. I had the opportunity to inspect and return the gun if I wanted. I didn't expect perfection for $500.00, but got a good working, shootable musket right out of the box. I've made a dozen or so muzzleloaders, but wanted a quick, cheap and easy representative F&I, and AWI musket to show the grandkids. I proofed the barrel, and it shoots very reliably and accurately for the musket it is. I've since worked on the frizzen to pan fit, to close a small gap, and spent a few hours working down the stock and putting a more accurate finish on the wood. The result looks as close to the original as any other I've seen made in Europe, Japan, or the US.

My first choice would always be a handmade, in the US, by myself or a skilled craftsman, gun. But, it sometimes isn't worth the money or effort for a gun that will see very limited or no live round use.

 

[JohnN]

At least you can buy a Pedersoli mainspring. Try getting DG to sell you one if you need it. They wont because they don't have them ( if you can get a hold of them). Problem with Indian muskets is getting spare parts. I bought a DG musket and then found out if you need a spare part they have to be made at a large expense. I made my own lock for my DG 1728 French musket using Rifle Shoppe parts.

 

[ChrisLJ]

"Apple and PC have separate forums."

You're darn tootin' they do. The animosity between us makes this muzzle loader conflict seem like kindergarten stuff. All I can say is "You should have gotten a Mac!" :wink:

 

[palladius]

The point. MV sells a double-barrel gun that looks pretty cool that obviously DG doesn't have the rights to. What I now know is when I buy from MV, I will get similar quality as the DG Bess I already own and like. DG = MVT

Same deal with Loyalist Arms and Veteran Arms. They both sell that same quality of product. LA = VA

BUT DG & MVT are not the same as LA & VA

As I said, there might be some overlap and looking carefully at the pics I can see where you would say that but I know some of the guns are different. LA & VA each sell a fusil de chasse but the furniture is different, the locks are different and even the length is different. They went to great lengths to make the same guns different.

Do you happen to have a French Model 1777 or have access to one from DG? Mine has a manufacturer's stamp from India. We could compare. The Indian musket makers are all so secretive about their "proprietary makers" that I don't believe any of them when they say they were or were not made at the same place as another company. It would be interesting if nothing else.

 

[tiger13]

I can tell you with certainty, Middlesex does not buy their muskets from the same maker as Discriminating General. Now whether you believe it or not, that is up to you. But that is all I am going to say on the matter. There is a builder of muskets in India that makes junk, now I understand there are members here that think they are all junk, but that has been debated to death, and is not the issue right now. The manufacturer that DG uses is NOT used by MVTC. If you have your doubts, all you need to do is call Wendy and ask her. She will confirm your suspicions.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Same here. India has about 15 million people working in slavery. Many or most of the children. I simply do not care to patronize anything having to do with that country.

Considering how much stuff we Americans buy that comes from China these days...

We are straying ff At the risk of getting mod slapped, I'll reply.
Do some Googling on the subject of slavery. Almost all reports say there are about 30 million people in the world in slavery. About half of those are in India. China comes in second with 2 to 3 million. Horrible but no wheres near India.
To reply to another post. My negative feelings towards products are not borne of racism. They stem from two things. One, quality of many, not just ml guns, are very poor quality. Two, I am not racist but I do have a strong bias (if you don't know the difference, look it up) against a decadent and corrupt society. I want nothing to do with anything that comes from India.

 

[tiger13]

The company the makes the muskets for DG is N.V. Sikligar,over wise know as curious house. This company does not make the muskets for MVTC.

 

[palladius]

ff Yes, 3 million slaves in China compared to India's 14-15 million but many, many more workers in China are in working conditions not much better than that. My point was that many more of us buy poorly made stuff from China, Bangladesh and elsewhere that we don't need every day. It's hard not to unfortunately. It's hard to make a moral stance from that position except in degree, not in kind. OTOH, the people who hand make muskets are not children or slave laborers, they are comparatively skilled craftsmen and one shouldn't be accused of supporting slavery buying their products. Maybe for the shirt you or I might be wearing from Bangladesh, Indonesia or China but not for a musket.

 

[Billnpatti]

"Bought it, love it."

Well, you know what your standards are and what you will accept as being a quality firearm. Enjoy!

 

[greggholmes]

I shot my Middlesex village 3rd bess all day sunday and it didn't blow up one bit. :hmm:

 

[spudnut]

I came in 7th in a rifle match with my MV Fowler.I remember people badmouthing the Japanese bess's Now theyre very sought after

 

[Ike Godsey]

In my limited experience, the guns made in India look good as long as you don't get up close and personal. Many of them have lock problems that require a lot of work to get them working properly. They seem to be better suited for reenacting than for serious shooting. I know that there are folks on the Forum who will tell you that they have had good experiences with their guns that were made in India but many will tell you that they are not any good. I guess a lot depends on the particular gun that you get, what your purpose for it is and what your standards are and the service that you get from the seller. I must admit that I have heard that the folks at Middlesex Village are good about taking care of the customer after the sale. I don't have any knowledge about the other source that has been mentioned. They may provide good service as well but I don't know. So, if you really do want a gun that is made in India and think it will serve your needs well, I would try to look at one of the guns. Handle it and, if the owner will allow you, shoot it. If you are happy with what you see, I think I might consider buying from MV just on the basis of their reputed good service.

Having said all of that, I still say that if it were me, I'd be looking in the various ads for a good condition used gun like I want that was made by someone like Pedersoli or even a custom made one. I'm still of the opinion that buying a gun made in India is a manure shoot, you may win but, then again......????? :idunno:

If you are handy at all with your hands, there are several places that's offer guns "In the white" for under 2K that all you have to do is to sand and finish the stock and brown the metal parts. Some guns, such as many of the military muskets, do not require that the barrels and locks even be browned. They are usually kept bright and just polished. You can get a smoothie without having to go the Indian made route.

Good luck on whatever decision you come to.

hello everybody!

i stumbled into this thread because of the discussion about india made muskets.
you guys seem to know exactly what you're talking about - but how many of you really handled one of those muskets lately?
are you aware of the fact, that there are not saying many but a couple of different makers in india, most of them producing the same basic line in rock- match- and percussion guns?

i own and shoot three different muskets made in india. all three are great guns, well build and do perform well. on all three i have tuned the lock - yes thats one of the bad things on that muskets, but once you did this, the locks are giving you years of trouble free service.

one of the important points is, here in germany - such guns need to be tested by an offical german proofhouse.
there is a document (besides the stamps on the barrel) that comes with the gun(s) that tells you how this gun was testfired. in the case of my 1730 Long Land Pattern Musket, it was 12 gramm (not grain! GRAMM!) of 2F blackpowder and a 50 GRAMM lead ball.
the guns must fire this 5 times and it is measured after the last shot.
the proofmarks will be stamped on the gun only when everything is OK.

i own a Pedersoli Brown Bess as well. shooting it against my india made LLP they are close, both are good guns, but the LLP is closer to the time period i am reenacting.

i also own a TVLLE de Grenadier - one of the guns made for the Canada Parkservice by Mendi in Spain. nice gun - really, but it has more misfires than the india made LLP.

am i convinced that those are good guns? yes, but as somebody said before, they are exactly what your money is worth. assuming that a Pederoli Bess is about 1100 euros (close to 1500 US$) the india made LLP is just 500€. but you need to know that you're buying a 90% finished kit. if you're skillful enough to tune your india musket it will give you years of trouble free service.

the question i asked was if one of the members here, speaking negative about those india guns, have handled one lately cause of their opinion on those "currys"?

it starts out by simply calling them "india guns" no one would even think about calling all US made guns "american guns" - we all know that there are differences in make, model and quality of making, depending on who made the gun, may it be ravenshear, north star west or, or, or....

same is true for guns from india. DGH was named for example. Dehli Gun House is NOT a maker. its a dealer. same is true for Dixie. so there is no gun made by Dixe - and there is no gun made by DGH - at least not in the last 10 years.

are those guns from india a piece of trash? could easily be. i would like to tell you something. back in 1997 i ordered a US made fowler with nice curly maple stock, L&R Ketland lock, 44" barrel in .62. handmade from a US maker, his name starts with J. (first) B. (last). i spend about 1800DM on it. which was about 1000US$ in those days. plus shipping, plus tax plus custom, it was around 2100DM.
the gun came in the easter week and i was very excited - opened it, put a flint in the lock, and OMG! i have never seen a lock, making so less sparks as this one. it turns out, that this L&R Lock makes good sparks with synthetic flints, not with natural ones.
well if you want to fire such guns here in germany you need to have an official proof on the gun. i drove to the proof house, handled them the gun, ask if i can stay and watch - which i could - they loaded the gun and fired it - and that was the last thing i saw of my gun. it blow up right at its first shot! i was shocked and happy at the same time! shocked cause of the money that just blow up, happy cause the german proof safed my life.
the rest of the story is easily told: i contacted J.B., who had no computer at those days, told him what happends and never heard a word from him.

since then i buy my guns here in germany from german gun dealers, they must (by the law) give you 2 years warranty and the must (by the law) proof the guns by an official proof house at their risk before they can sell you a gun.

thank you for listening,

ike

 

[Alden]

I came in 7th in a rifle match with my MV Fowler...

Yeah, out of seven!

:rotf:

Kiddin'...

 

[Jason Lewis]

just a reminder to be civil and stay on topic gentlemen.

 

[RAEDWALD]

It may be of interest for those on both sides of the argument to take a look at:
www.derbyshirearms.com. Who sell Indian guns proofed in Birmingham.
http://rajasthanarmoury.com. One of the Udaipur manufacturers who supply the repro gun trade.
http://www.narayansports.com. Another such factory in Udaipur.

You will recognise arms sold by the USA/Canadian sellers that have been mentioned in this topic.

If you read period books and articles on the 18th century English gun trade you will find the methods used in Udaipur are similar except the Indian guns use superior metals and the barrel metal and construction is far superior. Those who see videos and photos of the Indian factories need to take into account the cultural differences such as working on the floor in open rooms is the accepted proper way to work there whilst we are accustomed to working standing at benches in closed rooms.

Until the rifle muskets of the 1840's Indian and North African matchlocks outranged and were more accurate at a distance than European and American muskets, had particularly sophisticated breeches and had rear sights. It was the Algerians outshooting the French that began the scientific research and testing of different ways to load a rifle as easily as a musket that begat the rifle musket.

In lands where one can make free choices mine is to buy an Indian musket from Derbyshire Arms.