Mild steel for knives

[Centurion]

Good afternoon. I never thought the first post would generate this much activity . I asked the question about edge longevity and dressing der, meaning exactly what Notchy Bob said - how often does one have to just take a minute to touch up an edge.

Here’s how i intend to find out this fall... (more to follow), and it fits right in with comments about how at one time, flintlocks were the best we knew.

 

[Centurion]

I don’t have a forge, nor access to one. I don’t have a large anvil. But 20-40 years ago i had a hacksaw and some files and an electric drill. And for most of that time i had a picnic table or porch for a workbench. And i had fun with it. These blades were all tempered by the way, by heating them up with a propane torch until they were sorta’ red, and then dousing them in water. Voila!

 

[Centurion]

The file and “puck” were purchased specifically to go into my shooting bag just for the occasional touch-up when needed. Both of these two smaller knives with go into service in camp next week. The kukri (anybody else see “The Man Who Would Be King”?) is gonna get used for chopping kindling, eventually for a twig stove when i get one built.

don

 

[Notchy Bob]

Nice work on those knives, Don! I like all of those, but especially the one with the rifle, and the one with the wood handle and clip-point blade in the upper left of your gallery. It appears to me that you are well equipped, and I hope you'll follow up with a field report later this fall.

Good luck to you, brother!

Notchy Bob

 

[Centurion]

The extent of my blacksmithin’ is making crosses out of square masonry nails with my son’s wire welder (taught myself how to dance a jig by doing this wearing flips, but that’s another story). Any time someone sses one of these and comments on it, i can take it off and give it to them (and enjoy the looks on their faces!). I expect some of these knives’ll be the same way.

don

 

[Centurion]

Then go make some more.

 

[Larks]

I don’t have a forge, nor access to one. I don’t have a large anvil. But 20-40 years ago i had a hacksaw and some files and an electric drill. And for most of that time i had a picnic table or porch for a workbench. And i had fun with it. These blades were all tempered by the way, by heating them up with a propane torch until they were sorta’ red, and then dousing them in water. Voila!

Not to criticise but in the hope that it might help with future projects - when you talk about dousing in water I take it that you’re aiming to "harden" the blade and edge, rather than temper it. “Tempering" is done after hardening to remove the brittleness of the blade so that it won’t break - it will remove a little of the edge hardness but it’s the compromise between having a hard, sharp edge that will snap, or a good edge that will still hold but will be tougher and more durable being more structurally stable. Harden first by heating the blade to just above magnetic - ie above red and until it is no longer magnetic (use a magnet to check it) and preferably quench it in oil rather than water so that it’s a slower quench (I use canola oil but some use old engine oil). I temper in a small oven and the temperature depends on the type of steel but can be anywhere between at about 180C and up to something like 350C (I generally use about 180-240C).

 

[Chuckster60]

I like the process for hardening and tempering that Scorpion Swords & Knives uses.

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[tippit]

Mild Steel is a cheap way to learn how to forge a blade. When I'm teaching I suggest the New knife maker learns on mild steel for forging and grinding...no reason to use good carbon steel until one get a good feel for forging and grinding a blade. With that said once you learn how to forge/grind or file a blade, there is no way I'd waste my time on mild steel when I know what the difference in blade quality turns out with carbon steel.

 

[LRB]

I like the process for hardening and tempering that Scorpion Swords & Knives uses.

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They are not very specific about their heat treat process, and from what small bit of information they give, it would seem less than ideal for a knife, but maybe passable for a sword that will not be used against another.

 

[LRB]

I have not used mine for field dressing deer, but I believe you would probably need to pause several times to touch up the blade. However, I can say that while the mild steel blade dulls quickly, it also sharpens easily. A few licks with a file and you're good to go again.

You can get a mild steel blade quite sharp. It will cut. It will not dull immediately, if you use it properly, but it will dull faster than a knife made of harder steel and will therefore require more frequent sharpening, and over time will wear out faster than a knife of better steel due to repeated sharpening. However, it will get the job done.

I'm pondering that phrase, "...before the edge gives out." I don't know if that means the point at which the knife begins to dull, and needs "touching up," or if we mean the point at which the knife gets so dull it will not cut, and requires a major sharpening session. Many people take great pride in keeping their cutting tools sharp, but a surprising number of folks would rather work with dull tools than go to the trouble of sharpening them.

Many years ago, I did a lot of work with fresh, green hides, mostly deer and cow. I used a Green River Dadley blade for fleshing, trimming, and scraping off the hair. I think these blades are made of 1075, with Rc hardness in the mid fifties, but I'm not certain of that. The knife worked best when it was sharp. I started every session of hide work by whetting the knife on an India stone to a near razor edge. I kept a Schrade HoneSteel in my hip pocket and would pause and steel the knife every few minutes. Steeling the blade took literally seconds. This sounds tedious, but in fact it made the work go faster by keeping the blade sharp, and I was usually ready to straighten up from the fleshing beam and rest my back at those intervals, anyway.

The best way to answer the question to your own satisfaction might be to make (or have made) a knife of mild steel and try it out. Chances are pretty good you will not be happy with it if you are used to working with knives of modern high-carbon steel with proper heat treatment, and you'll think it is a lousy knife. It's just that the common folk on the frontier two centuries ago would have not had that frame of reference. They might have only been familiar with the "soft steel" knives as described in the literature of the period... They would not have known any better, and would have done the best they could with what they had.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

Modern and 20th c. Russell GR blades are 1095. So are Old Hickory. Yes, the hardness is somewhere in the mid 50's.

 

[Notchy Bob]

Modern and 20th c. Russell GR blades are 1095. So are Old Hickory. Yes, the hardness is somewhere in the mid 50's.

Thank you! I stand corrected.

Notchy Bob

 

[Chuckster60]

Modern and 20th c. Russell GR blades are 1095. So are Old Hickory. Yes, the hardness is somewhere in the mid 50's.

My Grandpa used the Old Hickory butcher knife, He kept it hair popping sharp. Good Knives.

 

[Chuckster60]

They are not very specific about their heat treat process, and from what small bit of information they give, it would seem less than ideal for a knife, but maybe passable for a sword that will not be used against another.

This is from a sword blog that has been around for 15 yrs, A good site to learn about steel to carry into a conflict. Search Results for “scorpion swords” – SBG Sword Store Blog

 

[LRB]

L-6 is a superior steel for swords against 1095, or for tools or blades that need inpact resistance coupled with good hardness. L-6 is a little expensive, 1095 is pretty cheap. 1095 has very little impact resistance at 58 Rc hardness and will be somewhat prone to edge chipping if striking hard objects with force. Especially as with a sword swing. I notice most of those Scorpion swords are thick, wide, and have a Scandi like grind, and there is good reason for that.

 

[Chuckster60]

L-6 is a superior steel for swords against 1095, or for tools or blades that need inpact resistance coupled with good hardness. L-6 is a little expensive, 1095 is pretty cheap. 1095 has very little impact resistance at 58 Rc hardness and will be somewhat prone to edge chipping if striking hard objects with force. Especially as with a sword swing. I notice most of those Scorpion swords are thick, wide, and have a Scandi like grind, and there is good reason for that.

I agree L6-bainite makes for a top of the line sword if heat tempered properly (which of course is the real factor between a good sword and when not tempered a steel bar that will chip, bend and break). When I have $1800.00 I would like the Hunter Katana
https://casiberia.com/prod_list.aspx?q=L6here is a short video showing how tough scorpion swords when it comes to chipping and the price is around $318.99 with sheath, $279.99 without.
Here is the durability video the best part is at the 7:14 mark.

I have no affiliation with scorpion sword other than having bought one and I am reprofiling the edge to a apple seed grind.
Be Blessed !

 

[firestick]

With all this chatter of the historical significance of mild steel in knives does this mean we are allowed to carry knives from Taiwan and Pakistan and still shoot traditional style front stuffers?

 

[Notchy Bob]

With all this chatter of the historical significance of mild steel in knives does this mean we are allowed to carry knives from Taiwan and Pakistan and still shoot traditional style front stuffers?

I don't see why not, as long as the knives are built to appropriate patterns. Lots of people shoot traditional-looking muzzleloaders built in India, and I think Dixie's famous "Tennessee Rifle" was made in Japan. I think a lot of the cheap "throwing 'hawks" you see advertised are forged in primitive smithies in India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh, and have been for years.

I do believe in the old saying, though, that you get what you pay for, and I have not been favorably impressed with the quality of the India-made guns or cutlery I have seen. The mild steel knife I described making from a Pakistani blade was assembled as a low-cost experiment. I tried to make it clear that while the knife was functional, a knife of a better grade of steel would be expected to perform better.

I know firestick was just making a joke, which was appreciated, but it was still worth a comment.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[firestick]

I have a couple knives from Pakistan that are pretty good blades. I also have 3 that you could get a better and more durable edge on a plastic picnic knife. All knives are not created equal nor are the tasks we ask of them. Carry what you like and show no mercy to those who snub your choice.

 

[JCKelly]

A great knife steel you don't have to quench, and is cheap is an old file. I sure would prefer made-in-USA Nicholson to any thing Asian.
Yeah I'm a metallurgist but I'll try to say this pretty much in English.

I'd start out by tempering that old knife, just to keep it from breaking while you mess around with it. Since you have no temperature control or measurement at all this is kinda iffy. You might sort of polish/power sand the blade til its shiny. Then heat it up slowly with a propane torch or whatever pretty hot fire you have. It will change color. First light tan, then purple and blue, then no bright color just sort of a light bluish gray. Just about where those colors stopped & the thing was ready to turn light blue-gray, take it out of the fire. Or maybe a little sooner. Then just air cool it.

Do not forge it, unless you are in love with forging & all the stuff that otta be done to the metal after forging. I might suggest not to watch Forged in Steel on your TV.

Anyway, just file or grind the thing to the shape you like. Put a handle on it & sharpen to suit. I suspect, don't personally know, but strongly suspect that the details of that edge shape, how it is sharpened, make more difference to how great a knife you have than what steel you used.

Just to be technical, in Ancient Times when Nicholson actually made all their own files in the US of A, they used a high carbon steel known as 1095. You can buy annealed 1095 thru the mail various places. But to keep this simple, just go to a used junk store & pick up a few files of size to suit you. They really don't have to be sharp!

Tonight I am not getting along at all with Computer. Can't attach files. So, I think, my next post will be really l-o-n-g on files & knives.