Minie Sizing, Before or After Lubrication?

[TDDredge]

Another day, another new-idiot-to-black-powder-shooting question. Do you run bullets through a sizer before or after lubricating them? For context these are .58 caliber minies for use in a pedersoli springfield 1861. Barrel gauged at .577, so I'm going with .575 bullets to make sure if I'm shooting a lot that they should have good clearance. It makes sense to me that you'd size after lubrication, that way you don't gall lead all over the inside of the sizer, but I'm new so I'm assuming I'm an idiot. And if I'm an idiot, I could be wrong. So I ask If you do size the minies after lubrication, do you scrape excess lubrication off before running them, or do you let the sizer do the job for you?

I've seen the sizers that lubricate at the same time as sizing, I already have a pan full of 2 pounds worth of 50/50 lard and beeswax, and the lodgewood precision sizing die with plunger should fit the manual lee press I have that was given to me by a coworker who was trying to offload it (talk about a lucky score!), so I'm not looking for recommendations on a sizer, just whether or not you size before or after you lubricate.

I would also love to clear up some possible naivety on my part. I ordered bullets from track of the wolf. I've had good experiences with them, I know, I've heard there are some other places that might have better bullets, but I figured they've been good to me so far, I'll throw them a little more cash. Anyhow, the bullets were thrown with a lyman 575-213 mold. So in my bumbling silliness I generally assumed they'd come at .575" diameter, and generally with skirts that were round. I was wrong. The bullets were up to .590" in diameter (measured with calipers), and a lot of the skirts are definitely dented in. A little bit of research says that, in particular, expect skirts to be bent up a bit when the bullet is fresh out of the mold. Is this a general rule? Does anyone have a mold that they drop the bullet, lube it and down the bore it goes? Or are you basically always going to be running a minie down a sizer, if for nothing else to get the skirt in order? Eventually I'd like to cast myself, so asking these questions now ought to get me running on the ground faster when I get there.

 

[deerstalkert]

i drop and shoot minie's lubed straight from the mold
the whole design of the minie' is to obturate the skirt on firing.
i fired 21 .54's a couple days ago as a salute to Zonie. the last one went down the bore with just finger pressure on the rod. average group was 2.5 inches at 50 yards from a bench. usually i charge them with 70g fffg. grabbed the wrong charger that was set at 90g. my shoulder still has a yellow patch of skin.

 

[TDDredge]

i drop and shoot minie's lubed straight from the mold
the whole design of the minie' is to obturate the skirt on firing.

What mold do you use? Some of these, the skirt is dented to about the centerline of the bullet. So I'm hoping the sizer will fix it. They're also, again, just too big.

 

[deerstalkert]

i use the lee 540,

 

[TDDredge]

i use the lee 540,

I'm willing to bet that at least some of the deformation is just from shipping. Hoping the sizer will remedy most of it. Some of them I think might have to be set aside for when I can start throwing them myself. Right now, a setup to cast is not in the monetary cards. Someday, someday...

 

[deerstalkert]

it may be possible to reshape those skirts with a funnel. trim the spout until it fits and smack the cone

 

[kh54]

Right now, a setup to cast is not in the monetary cards. Someday, someday...

After firing my first $25 worth of Miniés in only about 90 minutes at the range and purchased from someone else, I decided I would be money ahead to start casting my own right away. I bought a used Lee furnace for about $20 on eBay, and also shopped eBay for a used Lyman 575213 mold. (I also tried a Lee Minié mold but I like the more authentic looking Lyman style.) I think my total investment including the molds was south of $125. That won’t buy many bullets purchased from others. I recommend that you go for it!

From the for-what-it’s-worth department, I’m entirely self taught in lead casting only because I’ve never connected with anyone I could ask to help. Read, read, read.

 

[TDDredge]

After firing my first $25 worth of Miniés in only about 90 minutes at the range and purchased from someone else, I decided I would be money ahead to start casting my own right away. I bought a used Lee furnace for about $20 on eBay, and also shopped eBay for a used Lyman 575213 mold. (I also tried a Lee Minié mold but I like the more authentic looking Lyman style.) I think my total investment including the molds was south of $125. That won’t buy many bullets purchased from others. I recommend that you go for it!

From the for-what-it’s-worth department, I’m entirely self taught in lead casting only because I’ve never connected with anyone I could ask to help. Read, read, read.

Watching videos, it looks like you can kick bullets out rather fast. I have a number of things that demand attention currently, but I'll make sure it ends up in my queue to get a furnace.

Do you have any experience on the sizer front?

 

[kh54]

Yes, TD I use a couple of sizers. I first bought a sizer from Pedersoli for my Parker Hale 1853 and 1858 Enfields. It comes with two sizing dies, 576 and 577. I found the 576 works for the PH. I also have dies from Dixie Gun Works in 579 and 581, primarily for my original 1861 Springfield and a pair of Miroku Springfields. The Miroku bores are both slightly oversized (582 I think - I forget) so I found a larger Rapine mold that drops a 582 Minié that I size down. In all cases I lube the balls first with mutton tallow and beeswax.

 

[TDDredge]

Yes, TD I use a couple of sizers. I first bought a sizer from Pedersoli for my Parker Hale 1853 and 1858 Enfields. It comes with two sizing dies, 576 and 577. I found the 576 works for the PH. I also have dies from Dixie Gun Works in 579 and 581, primarily for my original 1861 Springfield and a pair of Miroku Springfields. The Miroku bores are both slightly oversized (582 I think - I forget) so I found a larger Rapine mold that drops a 582 Minié that I size down. In all cases I lube the balls first with mutton tallow and beeswax.

Perfect, that's what I expected. Yeah I have a pedersoli 1861 and that barrel pin gauged at .577. And those bullets came (apparently from a 575-213) at .580 up to even .590. So I've really got to take them down, and hopefully it'll fix the skirts as well. I had looked at the pedersoli sizer, but I'd rather have that extra .001 in case I send a lot of rounds down range. The lodgewood was just too perfect since it should work with the press I have, and I could get it at .575.

Have you found casting to be particularly difficult at all? I guess the nice thing is, if you screw up a bullet, you just chuck it back in the furnace! Boy some people make it look REAL fast and easy. And somehow I suspect it is not that at all.

My lube is 50/50 lard and beeswax, so essentially the same as what you're running. I'll lube them first, and then I won't have to bother shaving the extra off. Sizer will do it for me.

If you have any other tips and tricks with casting, I'm always down to read, but learning from someone else's experience can cut to the chase at least a little faster.

 

[kh54]

TD, I’m not a lead casting pro by any means but I’ve made a lot of progress in about two years at it and it’s fun. I do have one tip: it hasn’t been worth it to buy cheap scrap lead - my results have been mixed and frustrating. Get some lead that you know is pure. The best luck I’ve had is with some lead I bought from Midway, guaranteed to be pure. And you’re right, you just remelt the culls. I usually get about 75 percent usable bullets on average and I’ll cast 100 to 125 or so in a typical 1-1/2 - 2 hour session. Double the output with my two-cavity molds for other guns.

It is as easy as it looks. Rocket surgery it ain’t.

 

[dave951]

Here's the skinny

It's not unusual to have a mold drop a bullet at a different diameter than specified because of a number of factors, not the least of which are lead temp and alloy.

Dip lube before or after sizing, doesn't matter from my experience. As for lead galling and causing problems with your sizing die, your lead is way, way too hard if that occurs.

Cast minies hot. I run 3 Lee pots using different alloys. I run the minie pot wide open.

As for your mail order minies being up to 590, I'll say it again, ORDER FROM LODGEWOOD. Track is great for round ball.

I use several different molds for my muskets. My 1862 Colts use .580 minies and I use a .580 sizer that just barely does anything to raw minies. Mainly it's insurance that the bullets are round. My Parker Hales are both .576. They shoot the RCBS Hogdons and that mold drops at 581 so I size to .575 for them. Bullet design will dictate how far you can safely size without ruining the bullet grease grooves. The Trashcan style can't be sized much. Others like the Hogdon can be sized by .006 with no issues.

Reshaping the skirts? Maybe but kiss accuracy goodbye.

 

[nkbj]

Lube first, then size.

 

[Erwan]

Right here, you have two questions in one…
If you plane to shot on target the best is the lubrication just before shot and if it is for hunting the best way is to lubricate the bullets before use.
The reason is very simple : for target shooting you need a very soft grease that save the fouling very soft but that kid of greased bullet can’t be carried in box in the “possible bag”, and for hunting, the grease must be harder and sticky than to be carried during hunting use…
So for my Minié bullets it is :
- Calibration with a good sizer a bit greased (care of lead on the tools and the quality of bullets) and greasing at the range for target shooting.
- Greasing and calibration with sizer on the Lubamatic (a Lyman do the job to ) and the grease is a bit harder for carrying…
After that, nothing more to say or add after what was answered before...

 

[TDDredge]

Here's the skinny

It's not unusual to have a mold drop a bullet at a different diameter than specified because of a number of factors, not the least of which are lead temp and alloy.

Dip lube before or after sizing, doesn't matter from my experience. As for lead galling and causing problems with your sizing die, your lead is way, way too hard if that occurs.

Cast minies hot. I run 3 Lee pots using different alloys. I run the minie pot wide open.

As for your mail order minies being up to 590, I'll say it again, ORDER FROM LODGEWOOD. Track is great for round ball.

I use several different molds for my muskets. My 1862 Colts use .580 minies and I use a .580 sizer that just barely does anything to raw minies. Mainly it's insurance that the bullets are round. My Parker Hales are both .576. They shoot the RCBS Hogdons and that mold drops at 581 so I size to .575 for them. Bullet design will dictate how far you can safely size without ruining the bullet grease grooves. The Trashcan style can't be sized much. Others like the Hogdon can be sized by .006 with no issues.

Reshaping the skirts? Maybe but kiss accuracy goodbye.

So do you think the .590 is salvageable at all? I guess you just see whether or not you have any grooves left after sizing and if you don't, then to the trash with it?

I think someone told me lodgewood in a previous post. Should have listened then.

 

[Dave Fox]

New-to-minie-ball shooters, a walk through the North-South Skirmish Association forums would be useful. Those boys know minies! Also a good place to acquire used equipment at a savings.

 

[dave951]

New-to-minie-ball shooters, a walk through the North-South Skirmish Association forums would be useful. Those boys know minies! Also a good place to acquire used equipment at a savings.

I'm North South Skirmish as is Hawkeye and a couple others

 

[Ian Straus]

....... Does anyone have a mold that they drop the bullet, lube it and down the bore it goes? Or are you basically always going to be running a minie down a sizer, if for nothing else to get the skirt in order? Eventually I'd like to cast myself, so asking these questions now ought to get me running on the ground faster when I get there.

Yes, I have several Minie molds that drop bullets that do not require sizing.
I often still push those bullets (lubed) through a sizer because
- there is variation is what comes out of the mold. Unusual; but it does happen.
- it gives me bullets that are not over-lubed, therefore faster and easier to load. This makes a time difference in skirmish matches

But when I was just beginning musket shooting a much more experienced mentor (and occasional Texas musket champion) advised me not to size bullets if they don't need to be sized.

Try for about .002 difference between bore size and bullet size. This gives you room for them to still load easily when you have some fouling in the barrel.

And from experience - if it gets dirty enough that you have problems ramming the Minie bullet, clean right then. Hitting it harder if it's not going down will spread the skirt, which makes it very hard to pullm maybe impossible. And if it's half way down it's unsafe to shoot.

 

[TDDredge]

Yes, I have several Minie molds that drop bullets that do not require sizing.
I often still push those bullets (lubed) through a sizer because
- there is variation is what comes out of the mold. Unusual; but it does happen.
- it gives me bullets that are not over-lubed, therefore faster and easier to load. This makes a time difference in skirmish matches

But when I was just beginning musket shooting a much more experienced mentor (and occasional Texas musket champion) advised me not to size bullets if they don't need to be sized.

Try for about .002 difference between bore size and bullet size. This gives you room for them to still load easily when you have some fouling in the barrel.

And from experience - if it gets dirty enough that you have problems ramming the Minie bullet, clean right then. Hitting it harder if it's not going down will spread the skirt, which makes it very hard to pullm maybe impossible. And if it's half way down it's unsafe to shoot.

My barrel is .577 (tested with pin gauge). Is a minie that came .590 even able to see sized car enough down, or should it go to a pile to be melted down once I get casting?

What mold do you use? I've been considering a lyman 575-213OS, I figure the lighter bullet should be a little more easily stabilized in the 1:72 rifling, but you've a great deal more experience than I do.

 

[TDDredge]

I'm North South Skirmish as is Hawkeye and a couple others

What mold do you use? I'm thinking about a lyman 575-213OS at this point.