Minie Sizing, Before or After Lubrication?

[Ian Straus]

My barrel is .577 (tested with pin gauge). Is a minie that came .590 even able to see sized car enough down, or should it go to a pile to be melted down once I get casting?

What mold do you use? I've been considering a lyman 575-213OS, I figure the lighter bullet should be a little more easily stabilized in the 1:72 rifling, but you've a great deal more experience than I do.

I don't know about your first question, never personally had to deal with bullets that were over the bore size. I started with the Lee .575 mold and worked up to larger calibers.
My thought is, if you already have the sizer - how's your accuracy? If they don't size down well then melt them. if they do then shoot them.

With my Enfield I had been using the RCBS "skirmisher" mold in .576 for at least 10 years.. Still have the musket, but the lock's sear is badly worn.

But now for the last two years I have been mostly using a Pedersoli Lorenz in .547. COVID1`9 cut into that, stopped the shoots for a while, or i would know more than I do. But I bought all three of their .547 molds; big Minie, small Minie, and expansion bullet, which is an alternate technology.

Off hand I don't see the logic in equating "lighter bullet" to "more easily stabilized." Remember, the 8-inch howitzer shell is more stable than a 105mm shell. And more than 6 times as heavy.
I do see that shorter bullets are more easily stabilized in slower-twist barrels, according to a ballistics formula I have seen. .

But my musket experience says working up a bullet and charge combination that reliably spreads the skirt of the Minie is what keeps them from keyholing. You want a heavy enough charge to spread the skirt, but light enough that it doesn't knock you around while you try to hold the sight on the target. And you want soft lead, not hard lead, so that skirt will expand. And if the skirt of the Minie is too thick, it takes a higher charge to spread that skirt. so take a good look at the bullet, not just its caliber. If possible get friends to give you a variety to try, and then you buy the mold that your musket likes best.

 

[TDDredge]

I don't know about your first question, never personally had to deal with bullets that were over the bore size. I started with the Lee .575 mold and worked up to larger calibers.
My thought is, if you already have the sizer - how's your accuracy? If they don't size down well then melt them. if they do then shoot them.

With my Enfield I had been using the RCBS "skirmisher" mold in .576 for at least 10 years.. Still have the musket, but the lock's sear is badly worn.

But now for the last two years I have been mostly using a Pedersoli Lorenz in .547. COVID1`9 cut into that, stopped the shoots for a while, or i would know more than I do. But I bought all three of their .547 molds; big Minie, small Minie, and expansion bullet, which is an alternate technology.

Off hand I don't see the logic in equating "lighter bullet" to "more easily stabilized." Remember, the 8-inch howitzer shell is more stable than a 105mm shell. And more than 6 times as heavy.
I do see that shorter bullets are more easily stabilized in slower-twist barrels, according to a ballistics formula I have seen. .

But my musket experience says working up a bullet and charge combination that reliably spreads the skirt of the Minie is what keeps them from keyholing. You want a heavy enough charge to spread the skirt, but light enough that it doesn't knock you around while you try to hold the sight on the target. And you want soft lead, not hard lead, so that skirt will expand. And if the skirt of the Minie is too thick, it takes a higher charge to spread that skirt. so take a good look at the bullet, not just its caliber. If possible get friends to give you a variety to try, and then you buy the mold that your musket likes best.

Sizer is still coming unfortunately. My big concern is, if I'm squeezing it down .015, what's going to happen to the lube grooves? I'm kind if assuming it's going to make them non existent. I just don't have the experience to know how little groove is too little groove.

The rule in modern guns is generally: heavier (and longer) bullets require a faster rate of twist. I'm not familiar enough with black powder yet to have a good idea of what's getting a little too long and heavy for my rate of twist. That all said, yes, a heavier stabilized round is more stable than a light one. Especially those zippy little 5.56 and their effective velocity terminal ballistics. Very much unstable in their stability

I made sure to get pure lead bullets, and that's what I'll cast when I start casting. Yeah the charge I have a plan to sort out. Starting at 45 grains of olde e ffg, then I'll work my way up. Not too concerned about recoil, I'm one of those people who enjoy shooting large volumes of high brass 12 gauge rounds.

At this point the sizer is shipped and I also ordered 25 of the old style bullets. I'll size and use what I can of the new style bullets I have, then run the old styles too. I'll roll up some paper cartridges before I go and mark them with bullet type and charge, and see what the gun likes best. I'm just hoping the resizing doesn't do havoc on the lube grooves.

 

[Eterry]

I started casting bullets in 1979, as a 14 year old. There is nothing simpler about shooting a muzzleloader than casting bullets, IMHO. I used a small cast iron skillet a Coleman stove, and a serving spoon I stole from mom's kitchen. Hi tech equipment isn't needed.

Minie balls ARE harder to cast, but not challenging at all. The lead and mold needs to be Hot. You must pour fast, or the mold won't fill.

Don't throw away any minies, just melt and recast.

I've never sized a bullet, not minies, not centerfire.

I bought 2 Lee molds at a flea market, they were too small for my musketoon. I went on Lee's website and under FAQS found how to shim or "Beagle" the mold. They were throwing a .575, now throw a .578. I get 2.75 MOA at 100 yards with the .578 as cast.

I think sizing .15" is a lot, but I have no experience. Try a few and shoot them, see what happens.

Definitely go over to N-SSA.com
They have helped me immensely.

 

[dave951]

What mold do you use? I'm thinking about a lyman 575-213OS at this point.

Depends on which gun. 1862 Colts get Rapine Trashcan at 580 or Moose International at 580. Parker Hales both shoot RCBS Hogdon or Lee “Target” minie which is the Lee version of the Trashcan.

I’ve already told you and will say one more time, LODGEWOOD is where you need to order minies in various types and sizes.

 

[ord sgt]

I retired from the N-SSA but when I shot in competition, I would push all of newly cast minies through the .575 sizer, just to be sure all were a consistent size. When preparing for a skirmish, I would measure the powder charge into a plastic tube, invert the minie and then dip the base in melted lube.. These minies worked well in my P-H Enfield 3 band and my P-H Enfield musketoon.

 

[APG]

I also have a 1861 Pedersoli and love it. I cast my own minieballs, make my own lube and have a blast. So after I cast them using the Lyman 575213 mold I let them cool then rub them on the bullet lube till the grooves are filled. 50/50 bees wax and lamb tallow. Then I push them through the .577 sizer which also takes off the extra lube. The first several round I put down the barrel go down with barely any pressure. Can easily shot 30+ rounds before cleaning the bore. I also like to make you own paper cartridges. That's how I do it.

 

[59sharps]

I’m using the Rcbs Hogdon over 42 grn 3FFG. I have to different size molds a 580 and size them. 576 for my Richmond carbine. And 584 size them to .580 for my colt musket. The 580 drops between 579 and 580. Thru the 580 sizer they do not size evenly all around.
What ever you do do not pound the rounds down w the ramrod. That will deform the nose and will not shoot well.
another thing the hogdon can be finicky. It has to sit firm on the powder more so than other minnies. I push them to the bottom and then raise the ram rod and give it a light tap. To seat it. I can get off 15-20 rounds before I feel fouling build up. Still never hard to load. I brush out after that Cw a patch on a worn brush. I don’t use a jag w patch between team events. Lost to many patch down the barrel.to many things going on between events to weary about digging a patch out. I also use a breach scraper between events. When I feel I need to. If you don’t have a patch worm make one out of an old bore brush cut the end off the brush and untwist it and spread.

 

[ohio ramrod]

I make my own molds that cast an over sized mini that I run through a sizing die that I also made. That gives me consistent diameters and roundness. As a machinist I have never found cast parts to be as consistent as machined parts. I lube them as I size them.

 

[Muley Gil]

I'm another old N-SSA skirmisher. I received my first muzzleloader in 1969, a .58 Zoli Zouave. My dad showed me the basics of molding bullets and from then on, I did all of the molding for the both of us. I used a Lyman .575213 mould and luckily, both of our muskets shot well with the Minies as cast. Back then, I would lube them using an old chicken fryer, putting the Minies in the wire basket and then dipping them, base first, into the melted lube. My Zouave would shoot a three shot 1" group, from the bench, at 50 yards.

Nowadays, I shoot a 1858 Parker-Hale Naval rifle. The bore is .577" and I size my Minies to .576". I put 45 grains of Goex FFFg in plastic tubes, seat the Minies nose down, and then dip lube the base.

 

[nkbj]

So do you think the .590 is salvageable at all? I guess you just see whether or not you have any grooves left after sizing and if you don't, then to the trash with it?

I think someone told me lodgewood in a previous post. Should have listened then.

Glob it on, get the grooves completely filled with lube before sizing and the manner in which the lube grooves are preserved during sizing may be found to be acceptable to your purposes. By example, these are Lyman #533476 sized down to .519" diameter for use in a .52.

 

[Treestalker]

Glob it on, get the grooves completely filled with lube before sizing and the manner in which the lube grooves are preserved during sizing may be found to be acceptable to your purposes. By example, these are Lyman #533476 sized down to .519" diameter for use in a .52.
View attachment 90780

No expert here, but it would seem that the lube in the minie grooves before sizing would hydraulically resist deformation of the bullet. Of course squeezing the lube contained in a tight place will cause it to find someplace to go causing problems. My brother Tiny and I both used minies in our muskets ( his an 1863 Springfield, mine an 1853 Enfield Navy model), which we hand lubed and kept in hard plastic cases until use. Tiny got hung up on the 'fill the base cavity' fad for a while,until he found in his own shooting it didn't matter. We both used 60gr of 2fg Goex and did OK. That was back in the '70's when the world was young and we had never heard of the NSSA. We were backwoods Deep East Texas swamp dwellers.

 

[nkbj]

Yo Treestalker.
In the 70's I was in the Houston area and also hunting east of there out Highway 90, up in Trinity County and also some in NW Texas.
Back then I was starting out in bullet crafting and got the lube in the grooves trick reading about swaging, that the lube would resist pressures and then the lead and the lube would tend to be formed in unison. It's works to some extent.

This morning I'm gonna cast some .46 diameter light weight spire points and see if they'll swage down OK to muzzleload in a rifle. Heck, they might even work in a Dragoon!

 

[TDDredge]

I also have a 1861 Pedersoli and love it. I cast my own minieballs, make my own lube and have a blast. So after I cast them using the Lyman 575213 mold I let them cool then rub them on the bullet lube till the grooves are filled. 50/50 bees wax and lamb tallow. Then I push them through the .577 sizer which also takes off the extra lube. The first several round I put down the barrel go down with barely any pressure. Can easily shot 30+ rounds before cleaning the bore. I also like to make you own paper cartridges. That's how I do it.

This is exactly the info that I was looking for. Which 575213 mold do you use, though? Do you use the old style or the new style? Making my own lube has been a blast for sure. I just used lard in place of the tallow, otherwise it's the same. My barrel pin gauged at .577, so I'm running them through a .575. But yeah, which version of that mold do you use?

 

[APG]

This is exactly the info that I was looking for. Which 575213 mold do you use, though? Do you use the old style or the new style? Making my own lube has been a blast for sure. I just used lard in place of the tallow, otherwise it's the same. My barrel pin gauged at .577, so I'm running them through a .575. But yeah, which version of that mold do you use?

I'm using the new style mold which casts a 510gr bullet. I think which ever one you can find would be OK, that's if you can find them.

 

[TDDredge]

I'm using the new style mold which casts a 510gr bullet. I think which ever one you can find would be OK, that's if you can find them.

Oh I know. Out of Stock everywhere...

 

[Pete G]

This is exactly the info that I was looking for. Which 575213 mold do you use, though? Do you use the old style or the new style?

I use the old style because it is well, the old style....

 

[hawkeye2]

No expert here, but it would seem that the lube in the minie grooves before sizing would hydraulically resist deformation of the bullet. Of course squeezing the lube contained in a tight place will cause it to find someplace to go causing problems. My brother Tiny and I both used minies in our muskets ( his an 1863 Springfield, mine an 1853 Enfield Navy model), which we hand lubed and kept in hard plastic cases until use. Tiny got hung up on the 'fill the base cavity' fad for a while,until he found in his own shooting it didn't matter. We both used 60gr of 2fg Goex and did OK. That was back in the '70's when the world was young and we had never heard of the NSSA. We were backwoods Deep East Texas swamp dwellers.

Most of the lube is scraped off as the bullet enters the sizer, no problems at all. Lubing before sizing makes the bullet slide through with a lot less effort. I use an old short starter to push them through. A smack with the palm of my hand and they pop out the bottom, no effort, but it does require more push to put an unlubed one through.

 

[TDDredge]

Most of the lube is scraped off as the bullet enters the sizer, no problems at all. Lubing before sizing makes the bullet slide through with a lot less effort. I use an old short starter to push them through. A smack with the palm of my hand and they pop out the bottom, no effort, but it does require more push to put an unlubed one through.

Not worried much about the force to get it through. The sizer coming should work in and with my Lee press. So if I can't get it through, I'm in some big trouble

 

[Steel Guitar]

My 2 cents. I shot about 3oo minies with only fair accuracy and swabbing the bore until I looked up what the match shooters do. They fill the hollow with lube and shoot accurately and without swabbing for at least 25 shots. I use crisco, and no it doesn't kill powder.

 

[dave951]

My 2 cents. I shot about 3oo minies with only fair accuracy and swabbing the bore until I looked up what the match shooters do. They fill the hollow with lube and shoot accurately and without swabbing for at least 25 shots. I use crisco, and no it doesn't kill powder.

Filling the base is a NOGO as is Crisco. No really GOOD match shooter I know fills the base with anything and they sure don't use Crisco.

But hey what do I know-