Minimum energy???

[Zonie]

It sounds like the same formula but I like the answer from the formula I gave. It sounds like it's 70 times more powerful than the Taylor answer.
By dividing by 7000 he apparently was trying to put the answer in pounds but I don't know why he wanted to do so.
To say a pure number like 1411.2 doesn't sound much worse than saying it's 20.16 DIAFPSPOUNDS. Or is it DIAPOUND FEET PER SECOND? It could be DIACALIVOLPOUND! I give up.

In any case, a lot of people feel momentum (basically mass times velocity) is a strong factor in how well an object kills an animal.

 

Musketman
.72cal X 510 gr X 1700fps /100 = 6242.4

Next project gun 4 bore
1.06 cal X 1750 gr. ball X 1200 fps/100 ====
22,260 !!!!!!!!! ouch!!!

 

[musketman]

Next project gun 4 bore
1.06 cal X 1750 gr. ball X 1200 fps/100 ====
22,260 !!!!!!!!! ouch!!!

I want one of those... ::

There is no such thing as over-kill in the musketman glossary...

 

I'm with BrownBear on this one. Spent a lot of years in the Army and managed to spend some of it on Army level rifle teams. Believe me, those boys never shut up when it comes ta talkin' guns or anything to do with 'em. With a .223 it takes 54 ft. lbs of energy to inflict a wound in the human body that will incapacitate said individual. Now, 54 ft. lbs ain't much energy. A little more than double that amount (110) will dispatch the individual with a well placed shot. I was taught in ranger school to strive for one shot, one kill.... placement is THE most important part of that endevor. :shocking:

 

Interesting thread. I think people get way to hung up on numbers.
Like others mentioned, the arrow has little energy according to math, but it will easily slice through the largest buck in the county and kills very quickly. This is of course with broadhead that is very sharp and causes massive bleeding.
I have yet to take a deer with a roundball but I intend to with my new .58 rock lock.
I figure the size of the ball matters also as .50 is still a half inch hole going in and those pure lead balls likely do expand well.
Here in Ohio we are limited to shotgun slugs, handguns, and or muzzle loaders over .38 caliber.
The blunt rather slow, but 1 0z or heavier 12 ga slug is not in the same league as high power rifles in engery at 100 yards, yet i've dropped a lot of venison at that distance and the deer fall down real quick.
I once made shot on a running button buck at 175 long paces
with a 12 ga. smoothbore and hit the critter in the back of the head and the slug exited the eye.
O.K. I know that's way too far and no one should take a slobber shot like that and that was one unlucky deer, but the point is the energy figures on a foster type slugs at that distance is very low, yet it still kills.
I do think that bigger is better.
I too have a 45-70 and prefer that rifle over most "modern" stuff.

 

[tommy b]

Here in Ohio we are limited to shotgun slugs, handguns, and or muzzle loaders over .38 caliber.

Check out MM's previous post on muzzleloader hunting in Ohio with "over .38 caliber" weapons. MM, can you direct him to the post?

 

[musketman]

Check out MM's previous post on muzzleloader hunting in Ohio with "over .38 caliber" weapons. MM, can you direct him to the post?

::
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=3235&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

Remember, it's over .38 caliber... :winking:

 

I remember that post. Good one, thanx fellas. ::

 

[Spot Shooter]

Min Energy is a relative thing.

Minimum Energy for a perfect shot is low, for a bad shot it's pretty high.

So being conservative, minimum energy is whatever you expect could go wrong and still want things to go Ok at. That is at the range where you would pull the trigger. As distance increases everything works against you, that's life!

Spot

 

[cayugad]

There is a lot of good thoughts here. The way I always looked at round balls for hunting for example the .50 caliber. If you knock a 1/2 inch hole through somethings heart and lungs, I can almost guarantee they will not live through the experience. A deer is a thin skinned animal. It would not take a lot of energy to punch through the skin and through the organs.

The other thing people forget about round balls are once they enter an animals body, there is no telling what will happen next. This year I shot a deer with a .54 caliber roundball hitting that big rib behind the shoulder first. The ball busted the rib, pushed that into the lungs, then followed the rib up, knocking out a chunk of spine. That equals dead deer.

A funny story. Years ago during our modern season, I was hunting with a friend in some hardwoods. I pulled my .54 caliber Renegade out of the truck and he began teasing about how I could not afford a modern gun. He then asked why I brought a single shot when I had so many tags to fill. I told him not to worry about me...

I took my stand and my friend was hardly over the hill when in came two deer. I took out my binoculars and checked them out. One was a nice little buck. I took my eyes off them and put the glasses away, then repositioned and shot that buck at 80 yards. The .530 round ball with 80 grains of Pyrodex RS went through that deer and killed a doe that was standing 20 feet behind the first one that I did not see... I had more then enough tags to cover the mistake, but that just tells you what a round ball will do.

My friend heard the shot and came back to check on me. He heard THE SHOT and screamed, "what did you get, buck or doe?" My answer was, "yes." When he saw the two deer, he swore that I did it on purpose. I then told him to fire off my muzzleloader as I did not need it loaded (I had my hands full cleaning deer). He was a little scared of it. I told him it would not knock him over. He shot it and was amazed at how accurate it was.

After getting them out, I went to town to register them, he went to the local tavern and told everyone I was too cheap to waste two bullets and waited until I could gang shoot them... :haha: The next year he had a CVA .50 caliber Hawkins...

 

[musketman]

I then told him to fire off my muzzleloader as I did not need it loaded (I had my hands full cleaning deer). He was a little scared of it. I told him it would not knock him over. He shot it and was amazed at how accurate it was.

And there are still people that call them Primitive Weapons...

There's nothing primitive about what they can do...

 

[strongarm]

I've read 200 ft/lbs will take down a deer size animal. Haven't you ever heard of pouching a deer with a .22?
Obviously you have to hit 'em in the right spot.

A round ball loses over half it's energy over a 100yds and it also drops like a rock past 125. So that should give you some idea of effective shooting range and energy.

Also remember conventional firearms employ 'shock value'...the destruction of blood vessels around the wound do to the high speed creating sonic waves. Muzzleloaders don't have anything like that. They rely on making a big deep hole using soft lead which creates the snow ball effect by expanding several times its original size upon contact.

Which is worse getting hit by a freight train at 10 mph or a bicycle at 100 mph.?

 

Foot pounds is a measure of supposed killng power of projectiles, when in fact, ft. lbs. is a very poor way of measuring killing power. ehre are too many variables to tie this down to a mere equation. Disrupting tissue or taking out the nervous system is what kills an animal. The US government used the analogy of 3/8" penetration of pine as being the minimum for ability to provide enough penetration to kill a horse. This was with a 45-70and 405gr. or 500 gr. bullet & would do it to wsomething like 3,000yds. That doesn't equate well to a RB, but experience shows that a .45 with a round ball, starting at 2,000fps will polaxe a 200 lb. deer at 90yds. with a broadside lung shot. The REAL bullet of 200gr., fired from a 60" twist .45 at 1,800fps, will give roughly the same kiling power as a .44 mag factory load from a rifle. It is also some 500fps faster than the original 44-40 round which used the same bullet weight. My experience shows this .45 REAL bullet, so loaded, will easily kill moose to 100yds. Other's like Elmer Keith, have added several to many hundred yards to this but used a 4" M29 at approximately 1,300fps muzzle vel. with a 240gr. bullet.(original .44 amg ammo was loaded much hotter than todays- I remember it - & it used to kick a bit)
Daryl

 

Four years ago I shot my buck at around 100 yards away with a 54cal.GPR. I was using 100 gr. of Pyrodex RS with patch and ball. The ball hit the deer high on the right side. The ball was slightly pancaked; it stuck in the ribs on the other side. The deer only ran about 50 yards and dropped. So I would say any muzzleloader rifle 45 caliber and larger has the ability to kill a deer size animal out to 125 yards with a round ball, long as the shot is well placed.