Minnie ball accuracy?

[Rat]

Is there a corresponding mold for these? I like to cast my blackpowder bullits.

Yes, LEE makes the mold for the REAL bullet. It's an easy one to cast too. Most of them come in two weights, obviously you will want the heavier bullet for elk. They are all short enough that stabilization should not be a problem, whichever weight you choose. They are blunt and have a small metplat, so they hit very hard. Cut holes in paper like a wad-cutter. They shoot very well in all three of my .58's, I load them over 80 grains in my shorty carbine, 90 in my Remington Contract Replica, and 100 grains in my 1861.

 

[Rat]

Doesn't a patch interfere with the minie's ability to expand out to fit the bore?

No, it enhances it, and fits the bullet to the bore perfectly. However, didn't work well for me, but I did not do much experimentation. I have read where others have had very good results, patching traditional minnies. I believe they also reduce the cavity in the base of the bullet, turning it into more of a bullet, than a minnie.

 

[Eterry]

Is there a corresponding mold for these? I like to cast my blackpowder bullits.

Yaki, I have a 58 cal Lee REAL mold, its in the garage, I'm pretty sure I have some REAL bullits cast for it. If I can find them I'll send you some to play with.

REAL stands for "Rifling Engraved At Loading" a nifty acronym Lee came up with years ago. The top of the bullit is oversize, I've had to use a small hammer to seat them on 1 rifle, but not most. The bullet tapers top to bottom so the bottom will load no problem. You MUST use pure lead for these...no wheel weights. Most find using a lubed fiber overpowder wad helps with accuracy. My friend's T/C 54 cal shoots cloverleafs at 50 yards using 80gr ffg and the heavy REAL bullet. If I was gonna hunt with a non-musket (barrel with deeper rifling's) I would use the REAL for elk, etc.

But...I've always said this...if you live on the western slope, where Elk are plentiful and its not a long drive and you can go every year then bullet selection isn't a big deal as long as you get close.

IF, like ME, you're 53, live a long way from the western slope, and have Hunted Colorado Elk ONCE, then Bullet selection means more to you...you may not get as many chances to shoot, you may take a shot a local would pass on, the range may be more than you like, but you saved for 3 years to put this hunt together and wanna make it happen.

I've been hunting with Minie's exclusively for the past 3 years, while a friend has used PRB's. We have both killed 2 deer, both happy with our choices. The minie hit a rib going in at 50 yards, and you could put 3 fingers in the exit easy. But if I took it for elk I'd load it hotter.

 

[yakipreacher]

Many will argue that 55 grains will kill an elk, and that the 60 grain service load used to shoot through horses, but I would not feel comfortable shooting an elk with a 55 grain load.

You are noting the service load as 60 grains? I had read somewhere that it was 65... Do you happen to know which it would have been?

 

[Osage]

Thought I would wait and read before posting my experiences. First, the Lee R.E.A.L. never proved to be very accurate in my rifle( Investarms .54 1:56ROT. However, the Lyman pointed, hollow based 425gr, three ring Minnie, backed with 70gr of 777 is extremely accurate and does not tumble(field tested to 200yds. The only negative is that it kicks like a Missouri Mule. I'm keeping the rifle, but I would sell the mold, LOL

 

[Osage]

Just to add a little more info, I hunt will hogs(not feral) in the Mississippi swamp and whitetail in Missouri, I use the rifle featured in the "avatar', which is outfitted with a very old Wollensak brass scope. It also shoots PRB good out to 100yd, but beyond that not so much. With regard to accuracy, bench rested if I do my part it can easily stay on an 9" aluminum pie pan at 100yds and thus far nothing has ever walked away. FYI this Lyman 2 part mold came form MidSouth Shooters Supply for around $70, but that was several years ago.

 

[Eterry]

Thought I would wait and read before posting my experiences. First, the Lee R.E.A.L. never proved to be very accurate in my rifle( Investarms .54 1:56ROT. However, the Lyman pointed, hollow based 425gr, three ring Minnie, backed with 70gr of 777 is extremely accurate and does not tumble(field tested to 200yds. The only negative is that it kicks like a Missouri Mule. I'm keeping the rifle, but I would sell the mold, LOL

Is that mold the 575213OS ? Mine throws a 460 grain minie, but I haven't worked up an accurate load in it yet. Lyman says its a direct descendant of the most used minie in the ACW, but who knows.

Did you use an overpowder wad on the REAL bullets?

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

I think with a minie perfectly sized to the bore there is no need for a wad or a patch. A friend, who also belongs to my range, shoots on a North/South Skirmish Assoc team and goes to the Nationals every year. He had a set of 8 machined plug gauges and use that to accurately measure my bore. Then we used a minie sized 0.002s” underneath that, using one of the sizers from Lodgewood.

He had me start with charges around 50 grains by volume, then worked up in 5-grain increments by weight until we got one hole groups at 50-yards. Then we fine-tuned the load at 100-yards. The results were amazingly accurate!

 

[Eterry]

You are noting the service load as 60 grains? I had read somewhere that it was 65... Do you happen to know which it would have been?

Yaki, everything I have read shows the standard load for the 58 musket was 60grs of what we would call 2fg. For carbine (musketoons) the load may have been less, like 55 or 50 grs. Don't recall ever seeing 65 grs a standard load. I don't think you would realize much change in velocity in 5 grains with a 58cal, but may in accuracy.

I use 3fg, a trick I picked up from a serious skirmisher in the N-SSA. You can use a reduced charge of 3fg compared to 2fg, thereby making a pound go farther.
Lyman, who did extensive testing with both powders, states a given charge of 3fg to be equal to a 40% heavier load of 2fg. (50grs 3fg = 70grs 2fg). I have not checked the velocities, but having shot both at 100 yards I can tell a difference in POI.

 

[Rat]

Thought I would wait and read before posting my experiences. First, the Lee R.E.A.L. never proved to be very accurate in my rifle( Investarms .54 1:56ROT. However, the Lyman pointed, hollow based 425gr, three ring Minnie, backed with 70gr of 777 is extremely accurate and does not tumble(field tested to 200yds. The only negative is that it kicks like a Missouri Mule. I'm keeping the rifle, but I would sell the mold, LOL

There's that individuality thing again, what works in one gun, not so much in another. I've found that the REAL often works, where nothing else does. I think that the minies, with exceptions, will shoot great with mild loads, especially after some experimentation. My frustration is that where I hunt I require (in my mind) a somewhat heavy load. If I only hunted deer, with no grizz around, I'd be more than happy with the service load. 70 grains, in a .54", is still a somewhat mild load, (but certainly powerful) and I am not surprised you get good results.

 

[Osage]

There's that individuality thing again, what works in one gun, not so much in another. I've found that the REAL often works, where nothing else does. I think that the minies, with exceptions, will shoot great with mild loads, especially after some experimentation. My frustration is that where I hunt I require (in my mind) a somewhat heavy load. If I only hunted deer, with no grizz around, I'd be more than happy with the service load. 70 grains, in a .54", is still a somewhat mild load, (but certainly powerful) and I am not surprised you get good results.

 

[Osage]

Well stated, originally I tried to get more range with the PRB, but my rifle just wouldn't do it. Then I tired the R.E.A.L, but nope still 100yd max. However, a well lubed Lyman 425gr hollow base, pointed nose Minnie with 70gr of 777 worked great. I normally use 100gr in the swamp on hogs, but since they are prone to charge its generally very close range.

 

[yakipreacher]

Yaki, I have a 58 cal Lee REAL mold, its in the garage, I'm pretty sure I have some REAL bullits cast for it. If I can find them I'll send you some to play with.

REAL stands for "Rifling Engraved At Loading" a nifty acronym Lee came up with years ago. The top of the bullit is oversize, I've had to use a small hammer to seat them on 1 rifle, but not most. The bullet tapers top to bottom so the bottom will load no problem. You MUST use pure lead for these...no wheel weights. Most find using a lubed fiber overpowder wad helps with accuracy. My friend's T/C 54 cal shoots cloverleafs at 50 yards using 80gr ffg and the heavy REAL bullet. If I was gonna hunt with a non-musket (barrel with deeper rifling's) I would use the REAL for elk, etc.

But...I've always said this...if you live on the western slope, where Elk are plentiful and its not a long drive and you can go every year then bullet selection isn't a big deal as long as you get close.

IF, like ME, you're 53, live a long way from the western slope, and have Hunted Colorado Elk ONCE, then Bullet selection means more to you...you may not get as many chances to shoot, you may take a shot a local would pass on, the range may be more than you like, but you saved for 3 years to put this hunt together and wanna make it happen.

I've been hunting with Minie's exclusively for the past 3 years, while a friend has used PRB's. We have both killed 2 deer, both happy with our choices. The minie hit a rib going in at 50 yards, and you could put 3 fingers in the exit easy. But if I took it for elk I'd load it hotter.

I found a 58 Real here locally.... thanks for the advice! I am also wondering if there is a mold that is a counterpart to "
"Hornady Pennsylvania Conical Muzzleloading Bullets 50 Caliber (512 Diameter) 240 Grain Box of 50" ...... It looks like these are a modified copy of a minnie but maybe pressure cast rather than hotcast. Some have been recommending them.

 

[sgeisz]

My best accuracy with minies was when I took an old style Lyman mould and lapped it out to provide about .001" oversize for my bore. A tight press. Lube with beeswax/lanolin or beeswax/neatsfoot oil (I used sperm oil which was legal to possess then). Next best was forgetting the minie altogether and using a .570 ball, 20 gauge card wad over 65 grains of fffg, and a ticking patch. This was in a Numrich 7 groove Zouave barrel. I set a record in the 50 yard musket match at Friendship with that load. Record lasted six months when someone using the same load broke it. I get good accuracy with the semi wadcutter lyman minie and about 50 grains of ffg in an old Hy Hunter Zouave (with the taper bore and XXXed out Remington trademark.

 

[yakipreacher]

so is the 3f safe in an older gun? I am assuming its internal pressures would be higher. Whether under a minie or a prb? Out towards the muzzle it wouldn't matter much, but up there by your eyeball, that might be important. As noted, I have a couple of 1800's rifles. Both a 58 springfield, and a 58 enfield. I originally asked with reference to my Thompson... you you got to talking of 58 cal, which got me to thinking about my antiques which are shooters.

 

[sgeisz]

I shot a lot of it back in the day. I made a paper patch bullet mould but made the plug too thin and the skirt blew out, never made a new plug as I had developed the round ball load. I used fffg in shotguns for a while also but found ffg easier on the shoulder in a long day of trap/skeet. I've since learned that my present musket, a Hy Hunter from way back in the sixties, may have a compromised breech (brazed bolster) and am probably going to retire it unless I can find another Numrich 7 groove barrel. I would now only use ffg myself. (my first Zouave, a Zoli, did survive an accidental double charge which happened when I was answering questions from a reporter during a match. Dumb. Took an 18" piece off the target frame top.

 

[Rat]

I found a 58 Real here locally.... thanks for the advice! I am also wondering if there is a mold that is a counterpart to "
"Hornady Pennsylvania Conical Muzzleloading Bullets 50 Caliber (512 Diameter) 240 Grain Box of 50" ...... It looks like these are a modified copy of a minnie but maybe pressure cast rather than hotcast. Some have been recommending them.

That Hornady PA conical is an excellent bullet, but it is in no

way related to, or copy of a Minne'. It is a cup-base bullet. However, it shoots crazy-accurate in my Plains Pistol, it's a good bullet. I know of no mold casting a similar bullet. I forget now, but I think this was at least 40 yards, if not more. I think the top three holes were round balls, and those bottom two are the PA slug or bullet.

 

[Rat]

Oooops, correction, 30 yard target. Wishful thinking.

 

[Newtire]

Newtire, where on the barrel channel was it glassed? I have a Remington repro aka Zouave, and it doesn't group like I want.
Thanks

Sorry I took so long to get back to you. I had a list of honeydo's and work to do that haven't had time for much else. So here it is at long last. I took the barrel off the first Contract Rifle that had been glass bedded and found:
The barrel is bedded around the bottom of the barrel up just past the first barrel band. In addition, they had fitted the rear of the barrel so as to have it touch the stock on the rear of the barrel rather than having the forces of recoil concentrate on the lockplate bolt or the rear of the tang. The second rifle split the stock just aft of the tang so I wound up bedding it like the first one & now it shoots a lot better. It wouldn't put a Minie on a piece of typing paper at 50 yards before-no kidding. This was from a rifle I had traded another good rifle for and which supposedly shot great. The bore was real dirty once I got around to cleaning it up before shooting it. He was a local guy so I figured he could be trusted. Will check those guns more thoroughly from now on! Hope this helps.

Newtire, where on the barrel channel was it glassed? I have a Remington repro aka Zouave, and it doesn't group like I want.
Thanks

 

[Eterry]

I found a 58 Real here locally.... thanks for the advice! I am also wondering if there is a mold that is a counterpart to "
"Hornady Pennsylvania Conical Muzzleloading Bullets 50 Caliber (512 Diameter) 240 Grain Box of 50" ...... It looks like these are a modified copy of a minnie but maybe pressure cast rather than hotcast. Some have been recommending them.

Yaki, almost ALL commercial Black powder ammo is Swaged, I know of no commercial outfit who pours balls, conicals, or minnies. Mom and pop shops may, I do, but not the big boys.

You can use ANY grade of black powder in Any muzzleloader that is safe to fire...BUT you have to use LESS of the finer grades. It is not recommended to use 4fg for main charge, but I shot up a lb of 4fg before the internet and had no mentor to tell me otherwise.

I wouldn't have a problem starting with 40grs 3fg in an original 58 cal musket, with ball or minie, and going up from there.
Muzzle Blasts has articles of folks taking game with original arms in every issue. Find your local NMLRA rep and he should have extra copies to hand out.