Minnie in smoothbore

[spaethjm]

I just purchased a minie mould 533 I think this could be a viable bullet in my 54 green mountain smooth bore to 50 yd. I hold a bare ball 535 to about 5 inches at 40. This might give easier loading and better accuracy. I can also use it in my 54 Lyman deer stalker.

 

[sr500]

Hi.Sorry for a stupid question, but do a Mine work in a smootbore? I have not tried it.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Not well. They need to be spun with rifling to get the most accuracy out of them. Otherwise, they travel like a knuckle ball thrown in major league baseball, and after 50 yds. or so, accuracy can be a thing of the past. Think of a Badminton birdie( or "Shuttlecock"), and how it flies through the air. That is how a minie ball flies when its not spinning. You actually will have better accuracy using a RB in a smoothbore gun. assuming a proper ball diameter/patch/lube combination for your bore diameter, shot at the proper velocity( powder charge).

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Paul is correct. The Minié or almost any conical that is longer than it is wide will start to tumble almost immediately after leaving the muzzle of a smoothbore gun. The longer bullet needs, as Paul said, rifling to spin and thereby stabilize it. To be successful, you need a hollow based slug that is no longer than it is wide, similar to the slugs used in modern shotguns.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Even modern shotgun slugs become marginal much beyond 50 yds., unless they are fired from a rifled barrel.

 

[sr500]

Yes i thought so. Remember trying shooting a 22LR in a bored out starter revolver when i was young. Not so god result. But talking about shotgun slugs, ive seen slugs look like a airgun pellet with a waist. And i know that airgun pellets work in smootbores.So thoose might works in a smootbore.

 

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Over on Castboolits Gunloads . com fellers have done a bunch of tests trying to get beyond 50 yards accuratly with smoothbores. Look at the shotgun section SEARCH.
Having participated in all sorts of ideas I am still of the opiion that the lowly Roundball is the easiest to cast, load and just enjoy.
I hunt river bottoms so really I do not need anymore range than a patched RB can give me.

 

[mcgiiver]

Yes i thought so. Remember trying shooting a 22LR in a bored out starter revolver when i was young. Not so god result. But talking about shotgun slugs, ive seen slugs look like a airgun pellet with a waist. And i know that airgun pellets work in smootbores.So thoose might works in a smootbore.

They certainly do work well. Called Lyman Shocker Slugs. I get about 4" groups at 50 yards out of my H & R Huntsman shotgun, using a AA wad and 1 1/4 gr equivalent of Pyrodex RS

 

[paulvallandigham]

With all due respect, I do not consider a 4" group at 50 yds. noteworthy at all, no matter what slug you are shooting. I have shot Winchester Shotgun slugs( Old, Foster Style) out of my slug barrel into one hole at 50 yards, and off-hand have fired 5 rounds into a group that was no more than 3"AT 50 YDS.

There are serious problems shooting the " wasp waist" slugs out of most shotguns. The Early- VERY EXPENSIVE- Versions were made too hard, and had sharp corners, that caused about 1/3 of the slug to break in mid flight. I have seen more recent versions that have a nicer curves or "radius" to those " corners", and I am told that these new designs are much less likely to break up. I don't know if the alloy has been changed.

I am told they shoot better from a rifled barrel, but that they have to have one of those plastic "shoes"-we don't discuss on this forum-- around them to get them down the barrel. After seeing their performance on deer- or rather non performance-- as the .50 cal. slugs zip right through and do not mushroom at all-- I stopped having anything more to do with them. This is 20-25 years ago, now.

I am assuming that regard the powder charge, you are trying to say, 1 1/4 OZ. "Equivalent By Volume", or did I misunderstand you? A 1 1/4 oz. volume of BP would be 3 drams, or approx. 82 grains. Since pyrodex is much lighter in weight, The Actual weight of an equivalent volume load of Pryodex in a 1 1/4 oz. dipper, or measure would be about 64 grains by weight.

We don't weight powder in BP guns, altho we use grain weight to refer to the volume loads we do use. This is the result of the transition of BP rifles from MLers, to Breechloaders, and the restrictions that using Copper or Brass casings to hold both the powder charge and the ball or bullet put on how much powder could fit in a given size casing. Before Cartridges, powder loads(charges) were referred to by Drams, a volume measurement.

This piece of historical trivia only comes in a " need to know that " concern, if you happen to read accounts in very old books that describe guns, and the loads they shot. "Dram Equivalents" still hang around on modern Cartridge boxes for shotgun shells, and that is the reason to mention this here. :hmm:

 

[Britsmoothy]

Yes i thought so. Remember trying shooting a 22LR in a bored out starter revolver when i was young. Not so god result. But talking about shotgun slugs, ive seen slugs look like a airgun pellet with a waist. And i know that airgun pellets work in smootbores.So thoose might works in a smootbore.

They certainly do work well. Called Lyman Shocker Slugs. I get about 4" groups at 50 yards out of my H & R Huntsman shotgun, using a AA wad and 1 1/4 gr equivalent of Pyrodex RS

I think 4" at 50 yds is good going and would take deer just fine :hatsoff:

Brits.

 

[Golfswithwolves]

Sounds like a good experiment to try out Minie balls in a smoothbore :hmm: . Probably won't be accurate but who knows until it's tried? Let us know how it works if you do go ahead and try the experiment.

 

[nkbj]

4" at 50 yards is MUCH better than I got the first time I tried minies in a .58 musket.

 

[spaethjm]

I have't got the mould yet but I am going to try. I get 4 inch groups with a 535 ball bare and a felt over powder wad at 25 yds. If it does not work I can use them in my rifled barrels. I have 3 two 1x48 and a 1x66.

 

[Joel/Calgary]

Before Cartridges, powder loads(charges) were referred to by Drams, a volume measurement.

With respect, Paul, no, it is not. These drams are and were weight measurements only, the same as grains. A dram of powder was/is by definition 1/16 of an avoirdupois ounce. There never was a volumetric "dram" measurement in the avoirdupois system, although there was one in the apothecary system, rather rarely used and for liquids only. It would give a weight of 60 grains of water, and a rather similar weight of gunpowder (post ~1820) if one tried it as a powder measurement, double the correct amount of 27.34gr. The fact that they did then as we do now, and use a volumetric measure to conveniently get an adequate approximation of the desired weight does not change the fact that neither drams nor grains are volumetric units for gunpowder.

And for completeness, the "wee dram" of single malt is an informal and non-specific small amount, not an actual measurement.

Regards,
Joel

 

[paulvallandigham]

Okay, I stand corrected. Thank you for all the information. When I wrote that piece I was thinking of the dipper style measure used to pour out drams of powder, including the dram markings I have on an old original dipper. My mistake. :surrender: :thumbsup:

 

[Tumblernotch]

I just purchased a minie mould 533 I think this could be a viable bullet in my 54 green mountain smooth bore to 50 yd. I hold a bare ball 535 to about 5 inches at 40. This might give easier loading and better accuracy. I can also use it in my 54 Lyman deer stalker.

If my experience with a .685 Ideal minie out of a .69 SB is any indication, you will likely see keyholes at 25 yds.

 

[spaethjm]

I received the mould and it is 533 diameter in my 540 GM smooth bore barrel one wrap of teflon tape makes it just snug I am going to remake the plug so it cast a conical. This is a winter I am bored silly project. I use my smooth bores for experimenting more than anything. They are just so much easier to clean than the rifles. I have two a flint and a percussion.

 

[Tumblernotch]

I've made new plugs to change the cavities myself. It is a good wintertime project. The officers who did the experiments to find the best bullet and rifling for the new muskets tried different bullet and cavity designs as well.

By making it a solid conical, you may improve shortrange accuracy, but I believe at beyond 25 yds, if that far, you'll see that an elongated bullet needs to be spinning to stabilize. Without that spin, it will want to tumble as soon as it leaves the bore. But good luck anyhow!
:thumbsup:

 

[CoyoteJoe]

This is an interesting experiment you're into. Just off the top of my head, I should think making a solid base conical would be 180 degrees the wrong direction for accurate shooting with a smoothbore. Modern shotgun slugs have a very large and deep cavity, essentially leaving just a hollow shell of lead. They depend on that weight forward design to remain nose first like a badminton birdie and I've seen very good accuracy with those slugs from modern shotguns.
Since blackpowder gives the bullet base a sharp slam, as opposed to the more gradual acceleration of progressive burning smokeless, you may need to insert a pug of light wood or paper to prevent the base cavity from collapsing if you are loading them over wads.

 

[Tumblernotch]

I'm not doing the experimenting. I have modified cavities in Minies being used in rifle-muskets so that I could use lighter charges.

He is using this bullet in a smoothbore and unless there is some projection or shape on the bullet to impart spin, it's going to tumble soon after leaving the muzzle, even with a base cavity. I did try shooting a few Minies out of a smoothbore musket a few years ago just for giggles and got keyholes at 25 yds.

I'm guessing a very short, roundnose conical with a very shallow cavity might stay stabilized for a little longer. And that is just a guess. I'll stick with a patched round ball I think.