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Minnies in a Zouave ???

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WV SCROUNGER: Looks like everybody is right on. but do try PRB in the Zouave as they seem to like that combination. Also on the minies keep your lead hot and throw away the first few casts as they will not be good. I think I read somebody said cast fast, that may be right you need to be able to pour lead much faster when doing large caliber casts. I have a dipper and it won't pour fast enough. There is a bottom pour ladle I think it is Lyman but could be Rapine that is better. Started getting good smooth bullets after going to the bottom pour ladle as I could fill the mould faster and keep the lead hotter. A cheaper way to lube is melt your lube in a shallow pan get the lube at least as deep as the top groove. Hold your minies by the nose with a pare of pliers (needle nose) easy don't mark them and set them base first in the lube. As soon as the lube reaches the top groove remove and set base down on a handy piece of cardboard or waxed paper. This lubes the entire outside of the minie except the nose. They slide down the bore well and stay on the powder well.
Most Zouaves have 1/72 twist with shallow grooves so to make a minie stabilize they usually take a heavy charge (near skirt blowing)you'll have a lot of experimenting to do but a fun rifle when you get it right.
Fox :thumbsup:
 
I reckon lots of buffs fell to the .58 calibre minnie. I've heard that the trapdoor Springfield kilt more buffalo than the Sharps ever did.

Rat
 
My Navy Arms Zouave (circa 1973) hasn't been all that accurate with the 575213OS minnies cast from pure lead. But I've been lead to believe it's the rifling twist. Read where these Italians have a 1:72, or roundball twist. What did the originals have? Was it progressive and how many grooves. Knew an old timer who shot (maybe still shoots) an original at the NSSA in Winchester, VA.
 
Probably not too many, to the Zouave anyway. Almost the entire 10,001 of them were sold to foreign speculators after the War. None were ever issued to U.S. troops. It appears that quite a few found their way back here. I don't know why the government bought them and never used them. It was a good weapon. I say you're right about many buffalo being killed by surplus muskets and rifles. Many yankee soldiers were able to buy their guns when they were discharged and you can be sure that a lot of Confederates who eluded capture at the end walked home with theirs. Plus many muskets and carbines were sold at public auction in the early 1870's and converted to shotguns, halfstocked and sold as is to settlers and farmers and they went west with their owners.
 
Rat, sorry for a late reply.
Actually, I would consider 50 grains a light load, in a 58 I would hope to be able to get at least 100 grain for hunting, the .580 minies I got weigh in at 545 grains. Knowing me as I do, I will keep putting more powder in till the groups (once I get one) start to open, but I wouldn't consider 120 grains too much. I just like to start slowly.
I seen the mold for the Lee REAL, that is a consideration, as well as a patched round ball. I'll make her shoot somehow.
Thanks for a reply
Rich G
 
:imo: anything over 80 grains is overkill (and overload).
The guns were designed for a 60 grain load, and as was mentioned above, with that load they will do in about anything folks in this country could hunt.

I think people keep trying to put modern rifle thinking into their black powder guns without understanding that a big, slow moving ball or slug (by modern standards) will kill as effectivly if not more effectively than the modern superdupper magnums if the range is kept to iron sight range (100 yards).

I see nothing to be gained except a sore shoulder by putting heavy loads into the .58 caliber rifled muskets. :m2c:
 
:agree: Amen Zonie. Here is what the 1862 U.S. Army Ordnance Manual specifies for musket and rifle cartridges:
(These are for expanding ball (Minie);
Model 1842 Rifled Musket, Caliber .69- Bullet weight: 730 grs., Charge of powder: 70 grs.
Model 1855 Musket and Rifle, Caliber .58- Bullet weight: 500 grs., Charge of powder: 60 grs.
I have seen elsewhere that the rifle charge could be 70 grs. This can work as some models of rifles have a heavier barrel than the musket. Musket barrels are much thinner than the octagon barrels most of us have on our civilian rifles and will not stand too much abuse. Those who shoot very old muskets need to be very careful as those barrels were handwelded and even when new were prone to fail. I have found that my Richmond shoots it's best groups on the 50 yd. range with 30-35 grs. of FFFg. I use a full 60 gr. load when hunting and have gotten full penetration on a deer at 100 yds.
:m2c:
 
I agree with the overloads. We shoot CWSA events each year. Conicals (minie) are skirt loaded with some bore butter. Lot shoot 40 grains. Some conicals are pointed, some rounded some pointed. My Zouave shoots .575 but some shoot .577 better. More later (grandkids..)
 
From what I've been able to find out, the Enfield used a
2 and 1/2 dram or 68 grain charge. I rounded up to 70 grains of ffg and use a 560 grain .575 Minie. This is a tight fit in the Enfield's .577 bore, but the payoff is good accuracy and a rifle that I feel is a fine companion for hunting most any game in the Lower 48. The problem with upping the powder charge in these guns is that they don't shoot to their sights anymore. Mine is right on with this load. When I up the powder charge, I still get good groups, but they aren't where I want them to be. Too heavy on the powder, and the thin skirts on these standard Minies begin to blow out and accuracy is lost. But they seem fine up to 90 grains. I must admit that I am very partial to this old gun.
 
I'd say you're right. I have in front of me the Ordnance Dept. Small Arms Trials Report of 1856 and it includes the small arms report of trials made at Enfield in 1853. They have the grain equivalent of 2 1/2 drachms as 61 1/4, but that could be a typo. They used a solid expanding bullet; diameter-.568 in.; length- .960 in.; weight- 520 grs. I believe this was the modified Pritchett bullet, a grooveless Minie type bullet. That's the one imported for use in the Enfield in our disturbance. Their test showed the results at 100, 200 and 300 yds. At 50 yds. the bullet struck 9 inches high, at 75 yds., 6 3/4" high, at 100 yds., dead on.
Using the 200 yd. sight the bullet struck 19" high at 100 yds. and dead on at 200 yds.
Using the 300 yd. sight the bullet struck 42 1/2" high at 150 yds. and dead on at 300 yds. I left out a bunch of figures of where the bullet hit on these to save space. This was with the charge you spoke of. The trick to hitting these targets with the loads intended for these guns is knowing how to use the sights. When we overload a bit, they will shoot high. My Richmond does with the service charge. I have to hold a fine sight even at 100 yds. It sounds like you are using a heavy Minie, probably with a fairly heavy skirt and it should hold up with a heavier charge. My only concern would be with a cheaply made repro or an original that may have a eroded or cracked barrel. Also, recoil would be a problem if you're in a musket match and firing a lot. I'm a big man, but I've come off a firing line at the end of the day with a black and blue shoulder. With a light charge such as Blacksmith uses, you can shoot all day. For hunting I use the full charge because even with 60 grs., you're only pushing about 960 fps. or so. 70 grs. would probably push you over 1000. At very long ranges, a deer could walk enough to put a heart shot into it's gut or hind leg or even make it a miss. As for the skirts blowing out, I've not had that problem yet. I use the original style Minies a lot and the cavity plug that came with the mold makes a heavy skirt. It works well with a service charge. Light target rounds (30-35 grs.) won't expand the skirt. I turned a new one which makes a slightly deeper cavity and a thinner skirt. The light load will open it and the service charge will also work in it. 70 grs. or more would probably damage it though I've not tried it yet. I have a 6 groove, 1 in 60 twist barrel. I would like to have a good original musket to shoot, but I traded my old Springfield a long time ago. Is your Enfield an original?
 
Zonie I won't argue about going over 80 grains, even though I like a good 100 grain charge. (with a REAL or thick skirted minnie) And I think you are right about the effectiveness of the big heavy slugs, and the modern hang-up on velocity.

However, I've also heard others say that the guns were "designed" for the 60 grain charge, and I think this is wrong. I think the rifle was designed, period, mostly to fire a minnie ball, and then a load was decided on taking accuracy, recoil, and economy of powder and lead into consideration, and then a compromise between all those things was the standard load, after much testing. Certainly hunting was not taken into consideration.

These rifles have plenty of metal in the breech area. Being tapered barrels, they look thin at the muzzle. But they are not weak, and were not designed around the 60 grain service load. That was the egg that came after the chicken. !!!

RAt
 
Rat, I see your point, however the second paragraph of your reply actually verifies what some of us are saying about the 60 grain charge. You say that it was adopted after much testing, taking into consideration recoil, accuracy and economy of lead and powder. You are certainly right about that. I have in my possession many reports written by the Ordnance officers who conducted those tests as well as reports by the Secretary of War. And you are right about hunting not being taken in consideration, unless you include the hunting of the most dangerous game, which is man. These weapons were designed for one thing only. The killing of armed human beings, moving about in the approved linear tactics used by the armies in those days. They did their job so well in the Civil War and in the Crimean War that the military leaders of the world had to throw all that they had previously learned out the window and write new books on infantry tactics. Yes, I believe that the 60 gr. (and 70 gr. in some cases) powder charge behind a 500-550 gr. soft lead expanding ball is the epitome of the muzzleloading rifle musket and cannot be greatly improved on safely. It is slow, a subsonic load actually, but look at the devastation it caused even at ranges of 300 yds. I must say that a deer or elk could see the muzzle flash and move enough to actually dodge a Minie at 2 or 300 yds. But that takes me back to what I said earlier. These guns were not designed for hunting, although many of us have used them quite successfully. I do agree with you that they are strong enough to take heavier loads. Soon after the Model 1855 rifle muskets were introduced, tests were conducted on randomly selected arms taken from store by loading them with as many as five (5) complete cartridges. Here is a quote from one of the reports: "With the rifle musket, four charges would get blown out of the barrel, but when five were loaded, the bottom ball melted partially, the second charge fired, and the entire force of the powder escaped through the vent with a prolonged sound resembling steam at high pressure. Although all the barrels were rifled and were mortised and tapped for the sight base, they passed through the firings uninjured." There is no doubt that a new musket or rifle was designed to handle overloads. However, there may be Forum readers who wish to overload an old original musket that may have cross cracks or other defects caused by age, or a reproduction piece that may not have been properly proved. If you or anyone else can get good results with an 80 or 100 gr. charge, more power to you and congratulations. While we know that the musket can handle a heavier charge than the 60 gr. service charge, I have to say that the two were made for each other. After much testing as you say, the Ordnance Dept. mated the two together into a "weapons system". The rifle musket was a mixture of the smoothbore musket and the 1841 rifle which used a patched round ball at the time. Wanting the accuracy of the rifle with the ease of loading the smoothbore, James Burton improved on Capt. Minie's design and came up with a bullet that had both qualities. Benjamin Huger and J.G. Benton of our Ordnance Dept. ran many tests using variations of our rifled weapons as well as some of those used in Europe and arrived at the optimum powder charge as well as bullet shape and weight. Yes, they used the existing barrel design as far as strength goes, but the caliber, rate of twist, number of grooves and depth were calculated to work with a load that minimized recoil, made most efficient use of powder and lead and gave the best accuracy. We can tweak these loads over and under the rated service charge to suit our shooting abilities and preferences, and our individual weapons, but I don't believe that we can improve much on the basic system. Nor do I want to.
 
Good post's KR, and Rat. Real good reading. :thumbsup: :redthumb:

Russ
 
Thank you Gents for the GREAT info!!!
it shows an extreme level of knowledge acquired by the forum members. KUDO'S

****WV SCROUNGER ***
 
No, Thank you Scrounger! These questions force me to think and to get back into the books and study this stuff again. You tend to forget much of what you've learned over the years and it's nice to have someone ask a question about a topic that you know a little about and you think,"Hey! I've done that" or "I have that info around here somewhere, let's see if I can find it or remember it and help this guy out." I've been shooting flintlocks for years, but my first love has always been military muskets and I've been blessed with a small library of books and notes about them. I know that there are others on here that know a lot more about this stuff than me, but if you have any questions about these guns feel free to ask. I'll try to find the answer as best as I can and I'm sure that the others on here who have experience with them will too. Of course, I'm kinda long winded, you know how some of us Mountain Staters are! It just takes me a while to get it out! :yakyak:
:thumbsup:
 
Now THAT was a post. Not gonna argue with that.

Oh heck, gotta get a couple more cents worth in.

:m2c:

No, I'm sure you are mostly right...very well put. Still, it just makes some sense to me to up the service charge a little bit, to around 70-75 grains, just to perhaps flatten trajectory a bit, and insure/ensure that we are killing the game cleanly, even though I won't argue that the service charge won't do it.

Certainly no one probably needs to shoot 100 grains under a 456 grain REAL like I do, which is strictly a Black Bear and Elk hunting load in my 1861. Just gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling I guess. Also, I do hunt in grizz country, so shooting, or having a heavy load in the rifle makes me feel good in grizz-turf. If I lived in a state where a white-tail deer was the biggest critter, I'm sure I'd be totally happy with a 80 grain load.

I am going to see how my little half-stock ex-Zouave does with 70 grains and a round ball though, for a mild shooting, light kicking, short range deer rifle that maybe even the little lady would enjoy shooting. See I'm getting a little bit better.

:blah:

Funny aside to hunting in grizz country...about 20 years ago, these guys shot a grizz up where I hunt...they took it into the game dept., after showing it off to friends and family, and proudly proclaimed they had taken "the record black bear". Yes, these guys were totally ignorant to the fact they had shot a grizz, and thought it was a giant black bear...!!! The game dept was not impressed with this record black bear, as this was when they had just started making their (the grizz's) comeback in the area. I believe they had to pay some pretty hefty fines.

The area has been kept posted with signs ever since, that say: "Hunters know your Bears", and gives a description of the difference between blacks and grizz.

Rat
 
Nope, mine is an old Parker-Hale 1853 English made gun, about thirty years old I guess. Supposed to have been made on tooling laid out using the original patterns. It's a fine
old thing, weighs around nine pounds or so, but is balanced so nicely that it feels like less. A lot of people don't realize what a good gun these rifle-muskets were/are, perhaps because their heyday was so short. In terms of a quick shooting , accurate, powerful, and durable frontloader
in my opinion they are hard to beat.
 
Well heck, I didn't realize you was a huntin' grizz with it! I don't blame you fer wantin' a load that would drive a ball through that critter. I hope you don't think I was trying to jump down your throat for loading heavy. As we both have shown, these guns can take it. I think I'm just still wound up from another thread where we were discussing guys shooting inlines who are trying to load them so that they would shoot the same as a centerfire. If I was hunting bear or elk with a musket I would certainly want a hotter load behind that Minie. But, the biggest thing I'll see around here is a whitetail. There are a few bears around here but they pretty much keep to themselves. I do believe that you will enjoy lighter loads for plinking and punching paper and you'll save some money. It's good for us to experiment some and discuss these things, it's how we learn. I might even bump up the load a little and see what happens. :thumbsup: :redthumb:
 
I used to have a EuroArms London Armoury Enfield that was a good shooter. I traded it and an original 1861 Springfield for an old Parker-Hale Whitworth. The Springfield was actually a mixed parts gun (1863 type 2 furniture and a Colt barrel on an 1855/61 stock.) I bought a Watertown 1861 contract musket pretty cheap (had a busted stock) and rebuilt it. A friend in my reenacting unit wanted it and my Enfield and I wanted the Whitworth, so we made a deal. As much as I have enjoyed the Whitworth, I kind of wish I'd kept the other two. I tell you what, Parker-Hale quality is hard to beat. One thing about these military rifles, if you experiment with your loads they can be used for just about anything. A light charge behind a Minie or a patched ball if your gun shoots well with those, can be used for small game, the service charge or heavier if you're a mind to can be used for big game and the bore is big enough that you can load shot in it and use it as a fowler. I've not tried that yet. I do know that these weapons were designed to take a beatin'.
 
Sorry, didn't mean to get you fellows all excited. I should have explained myself better. Most of my muzzleloading experience comes from shooting Flintlocks with patched round balls, this is the first gun I got that was designed to shoot a bullet. My method for determining a load is to start a powder charge about the caliber size, go up 10 grains until the group gets big, then start backing up 5 grains at a time. Now drawing from my centerfire experience, when you go to a heavier bullet, you start with less powder (if using the same type powder). Carry that thought over to a bullet on top of Black powder, in the 58 I started at 50 grains (with a roundball I would have started at 60 grains). My guess at this point, is my load will end up between 80 and 100. I could be all wet on this, but the slow twist that is supposed to be in this barrel (I will be checking what the twist really is) may mean that less will be better. The slow twist (in my opinion) begs for a round ball but the shallow rifling is the problem I see.
Accuracy first, power second. I agree that big and slow works real good. My 54 usually drops them where they stand.
If anybody sees fault in my logic, please let me know...
Thanks
Rich G
 
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