Miroku 1766 Charleville having Hammer/Frizzen Problems

[Ed Pilkington]

General Grant, you are drinking way too much. I had this problem some years ago. Your see, as a young mountaineer, i knew to follow advice and example from seasoned powder stained sages, so when i see learned folks set the flint pointing into the pan i did that too. Now a little voice said, it comes to reason that the flint is striking the frizzen too low for leverage and power. I reversed my Flint and “Wallah” it strikes every time with better spark and the frizzen flys open for the next charge of powder. Now you can take that last drink

 

[1General_Grant]

And pretty close is? In your before photograph is hard to tell, but appears you have 3/16” to 1/4” between frizzen and flint (see red arrows in photo below). Have you gotten it to 1/16” or less? It can make a big difference with some locks. You may need a longer flint or have to place something behind the flint to move it forward. Also, I’m not sure how well the piece of cloth will hold the flint in place. Do you find the flint moving back when you fire the lock? Most folks find a piece of leather works pretty good.

I'll send another

If it's firing reliable what's the issue?

Frizzen is barely opening probably wouldn't go off. See video below

 

[1General_Grant]

General Grant, you are drinking way too much. I had this problem some years ago. Your see, as a young mountaineer, i knew to follow advice and example from seasoned powder stained sages, so when i see learned folks set the flint pointing into the pan i did that too. Now a little voice said, it comes to reason that the flint is striking the frizzen too low for leverage and power. I reversed my Flint and “Wallah” it strikes every time with better spark and the frizzen flys open for the next charge of powder. Now you can take that last drink

I've tried flipping the flint upside down and I'm also a teetotaler.

 

[wiscoaster]

When troubleshooting, do the easiest steps first. If those solve the problem for now, fine, it gets you going, and you can pursue perfection later. If they don't solve the problem for now, then you have to go on to the next harder steps. Do as much as really needs doing to get you going. That's my approach, and I think that's the practical approach.

 

[SDSmlf]

I've tried flipping the flint upside down and I'm also a teetotaler.

By chance, do you have spring vice/clamp?

 

[1General_Grant]

By chance, do you have spring vice/clamp?

No, should I buy one?

 

[Hatman/2nd line]

Seeing the video, it looks like you need to reverse the flint and possibly loosen the screw on the frizzen with a drop of oil on the foot meeting the spring and the screw that the frizzen revolves on. Also, use leather to hold the flint in the jaws.

 

[FlinterNick]

IF it's not cleaned after shooting and collects black powder residue, yes. If it's properly cleaned and regreased, no.

The amount of grease I use between a frizzen shoe and a frizzen spring is less than the amount you can fit on to the pointy tip of a round toothpick. And my entire lock gets removed and cleaned after each shoot.

Don’t get me wrong grease has its place. I only recommend grease for long-term storage on locks. When it’s not being used. I grease parts that don’t move such as the bore greasing threads with graphite grease is a good idea. For quicker actions, such as lock internals and springs, Grease can inhibit its function because it dries and becomes hard traps dirt etc. further, your modest with it or use a lot of it overtime. It will slow things down especially in an open air, mechanical part.

Most people over lubricate or over grease their guns.

If you do use gun grease on moving parts such as tumblers and frizzen, and anywhere else such as the bore, I would wipe if off before shooting and apply some simple gun oil.

Gun Grease also can expire, burn, spoil etc.

Many people underestimate the benefits of using waxes on their guns, such as renaissance wax.

 

[1General_Grant]

Dont’ use grease, grease will make the parts stick.

Disassemble the lock, clean it will with some dawn and a scrub pad.

Once clean wipe it down with some alcohol to remove any remaining residue.

Check the frizzen foot for burrs, you can rube a paper towel over the parts, when the towel catches that’s a bur, polish out the burrs with some 220 grit paper, you may even want to rub the frizzen foot on some 220 paper a few times (not aggressively).

Once you’ve cleaned up the frizzen check the frizzen spring upper leaf, check the wear on it (carefully Charleville frizzen springs will break if compressed too tightly). You can polish the top of the leaf spring with some 220 paper.

Check the pan bridles, and plate, make sure the area’s are not damaged or have any burrs, repeat the polishing.

Lastly check the screw for straightness, and check the health of the threads if they look mangled then there’s a thread issue in the plate and or screw, you’ll need some help with that.

If the screw is bent then the bridle and plate screw hole are off alignment (this is not likely with your lock, but not improbable).

Wipe off any residue from polishing with alcohol, reassemble, lubricate with light machine oil (NO GREASE !) Grease will slow the lock down, you can use machining oil, tap oil, CLP any, you can even use transmission fluid or motor oil. My personal fav are those foredom oil pens on amazon.

If all fails then you’ll need someone to inspect the lock for appropriate tuning, it’s possible your spring is too strong or the frizzen has lost some of its hardness and the flints are gouging the steel. Again these are not common issues with this lock, as it is the best military musket lock probably in service.

Good Luck

Gun oil work?

 

[1General_Grant]

No but I think you need to remove the cloth around the flint and replace it with leather, and consider a proper lead wrap.

You may add grease to where the cam on the frizzen engages the upper surface of the frizzen spring, but you might also look hard at that cam and the upper surface of that frizzen spring, and simply polish both surfaces. Quite often the frizzen cam aka toe, the piece that touches the frizzen spring simply needs a tiny bit of polishing as does the upper surface of the spring. So a few drops of oil and some 1000 grit emery paper often frees-up a frizzen.

LD

I'll get some leather.

 

[FlinterNick]

Gun oil work?

Yeap

 

[1General_Grant]

Yeap

alright I'll use that.

 

[Penske]

First nothing wrong with your lock from what I see. Just bad geometry. From observing you lock in action I would suggest a smaller flint or at least move the flint back a little so it is scraping the flint and not banging into it. Having the same musket for years I know they are very temperamental with flint size. Very easy thing to try with no possibility of messing anything up with your lock. Remember to KISS!.

 

[1General_Grant]

Just my $0.02 on the matter, and I can't tell from your photos, but is the frizzen (by chance) just slightly rubbing against the barrel when it is opening? Look at your barrel and see if you have any rub or scrape marks on it. Even a very slight contact will cause the frizzen to not fully open.

If you take the lock out of the rifle and cock\fire it in your had does the frizzen fully open? If it does, and does so consistently, then your frizzen is rubbing against something. (Or possibly your mainspring is binding against something causing less power to the hammer).

Humidity can do things to your stock, causing even a minor swelling and pushing your lock to wood tolerances to cause binding.

Also, remove the frizzen spring and look at where the frizzen foot contacts the spring. Do you now have a gouge in the spring and\or frizzen foot? If so, polish both the spring and frizzen foot to remove the gouge. Don't start with any sandpaper rougher than 400 grit and go up to 600 grit at a minimum. Don't change the contour of the frizzen foot. (Again....if there are gouge marks on either part)

No it's not rubbing against the barrel.

Frizzen still won't open when fired out of the lock.

What do you mean by "gouge"?

 

[1General_Grant]

First nothing wrong with your lock from what I see. Just bad geometry. From observing you lock in action I would suggest a smaller flint or at least move the flint back a little so it is scraping the flint and not banging into it. Having the same musket for years I know they are very temperamental with flint size. Very easy thing to try with no possibility of messing anything up with your lock. Remember to KISS!.

I've tried moving it back as far as I can get it, the flints are Tom Fuller English-8 flints from Track of the Wolf

Maybe I should just send the lock somewhere to be worked on.

 

[1General_Grant]

Dont’ use grease, grease will make the parts stick.

Disassemble the lock, clean it will with some dawn and a scrub pad.

Once clean wipe it down with some alcohol to remove any remaining residue.

Check the frizzen foot for burrs, you can rube a paper towel over the parts, when the towel catches that’s a bur, polish out the burrs with some 220 grit paper, you may even want to rub the frizzen foot on some 220 paper a few times (not aggressively).

Once you’ve cleaned up the frizzen check the frizzen spring upper leaf, check the wear on it (carefully Charleville frizzen springs will break if compressed too tightly). You can polish the top of the leaf spring with some 220 paper.

Check the pan bridles, and plate, make sure the area’s are not damaged or have any burrs, repeat the polishing.

Lastly check the screw for straightness, and check the health of the threads if they look mangled then there’s a thread issue in the plate and or screw, you’ll need some help with that.

If the screw is bent then the bridle and plate screw hole are off alignment (this is not likely with your lock, but not improbable).

Wipe off any residue from polishing with alcohol, reassemble, lubricate with light machine oil (NO GREASE !) Grease will slow the lock down, you can use machining oil, tap oil, CLP any, you can even use transmission fluid or motor oil. My personal fav are those foredom oil pens on amazon.

If all fails then you’ll need someone to inspect the lock for appropriate tuning, it’s possible your spring is too strong or the frizzen has lost some of its hardness and the flints are gouging the steel. Again these are not common issues with this lock, as it is the best military musket lock probably in service.

Good Luck

Trying to put it back together and I can't get the frizzen and the frizzen spring on together, if I align both screw holes the frizzen and spring don't fit.

 

[Penske]

As I said try a smaller flint(Shorter in length). Set it so it is scraping the face of the frizzen not banging it.

 

[1General_Grant]

As I said try a smaller flint(Shorter in length). Set it so it is scraping the face of the frizzen not banging it.

I think the problem is just the frizzen was too tight.

 

[FlinterNick]

Trying to put it back together and I can't get the frizzen and the frizzen spring on together, if I align both screw holes the frizzen and spring don't fit.

You need to use a spring vise.

 

[1General_Grant]

You need to use a spring vise.

Alright, I'll order one.