Miruko Brown Bess

[FlinterNick]

Interesting story I was told about the Miruko Brown Bess's ever identifiable 'bent trigger guard'.

so as the story goes, these pattern muskets were late 1780's second model Brown Bess muskets that were intended to be used by Indian forces employed by the East India Trading Company. Following the end of the war of the 5th coalition the British needed to pay war debts and were search for customers who would buy their muskets. Mexico being a newly formed empire needed to arm its troops.

The batch of guns that were purchased and sold to Mexico were struck on the tigger guard to slightly bend them to mark them for shipment to Mexico.

I'm not sure if this is true, but it seems plausible.

 

[Artificer]

Nick,

With sincere respect, it does not seem at all plausible to me that they would risk the trigger guard interfering with the travel of the trigger by bending the guards. This is exactly what I found on one Miroku Bess that kept showing signs of the sear catching on the half cock and everything that should have fixed it had already been done by me. FINALLY I noticed where the bottom of the trigger was hitting on the bent trigger guard in one tiny area. Once I shortened the bottom of the trigger a bit, it finally cured the problem.

Gus

 

[thomas]

I've heard several times that the Brown Bess was damaged in shipping to Japan and the Japanese just copied the trigger guard in its damaged form.

Thomas

 

[Eutycus]

Just out of curiosity what is the weight of the Brown Bess muskets that were shipped to Mexico? I read a story years ago that the muskets were somewhat heavy and that some of the Mexican soldiers were too small in stature to properly aim the piece. Therefore alot of "hipshots" took place at the Alamo. But I feel all that was just that, a Story.

 

[FlinterNick]

Nick,

With sincere respect, it does not seem at all plausible to me that they would risk the trigger guard interfering with the travel of the trigger by bending the guards. This is exactly what I found on one Miroku Bess that kept showing signs of the sear catching on the half cock and everything that should have fixed it had already been done by me. FINALLY I noticed where the bottom of the trigger was hitting on the bent trigger guard in one tiny area. Once I shortened the bottom of the trigger a bit, it finally cured the problem.

Gus

I think its not likely true I agree, in the plausible aspect, MIruko only copied one or two of those muskets, with a Brown Bess we ought to remember that a Bess sitting around for decades aging is almost never going to be in its exact original form when out of the factory.

The bent trigger guard in my opinion is just a flaw that was copied, most guns marked for shipment in a bill of sale to another government would have been stamp marked or just etched or tagged.

In regards to being a later period second model Brown Bess, I somewhat agree with this only in that the stock and barrel tend to scream third model, the miruko barrels were close to 40 inches and not the standard 42 1/4 inches of a true second pattern, the butt stock is too small and the comb rail / flutes are not done correctly.

I've always suspected that the miruko bess was third model gun with a copied second model lock to make it more marketable to North American sales.

 

[FlinterNick]

Just out of curiosity what is the weight of the Brown Bess muskets that were shipped to Mexico? I read a story years ago that the muskets were somewhat heavy and that some of the Mexican soldiers were too small in stature to properly aim the piece. Therefore alot of "hipshots" took place at the Alamo. But I feel all that was just that, a Story.

I don't know the weight, but most of the muskets sold to Mexico were late second model muskets and third pattern muskets from the East India Co. These guns usually weighed around 10 lbs. Considering the average Mexican soldier was around 5'9 / 5'10 I could see how this gun would be hard to handle. One of the biggest factors in reducing barrel length on previous land pattern muskets was weight reduction, however the British still always found a way to make their muskets pretty heavy.

The French were really the masters of making a quality light long arm. Compared to the Brown Bess the Charleville weighed about 2 lbs less, even the heaviest charlevilles weighed less than the average Brown Bess.

When the USA copied and spun off their own 1816 and later 1835/40 HP and Springfield muskets these guns with 42 inch barrels were light weight, sturdy and all together a better quality gun.

 

[Eutycus]

Wow, 5'9" to 5'10" . I wouldn't have thought that they were that tall. From what I've read alot of the soldiers were conscripted indians who were even shorter than most Mexican soldiers. I think the average soldier in our Civil War was only something like 5'8". But I could be wrong on that one, (fuzzy memory!)

 

[FlinterNick]

Wow, 5'9" to 5'10" . I wouldn't have thought that they were that tall. From what I've read alot of the soldiers were conscripted indians who were even shorter than most Mexican soldiers. I think the average soldier in our Civil War was only something like 5'8". But I could be wrong on that one, (fuzzy memory!)

Generally speaking, human men were not very tall back then, especially men from Latin and South America. I think most repro's today are heavier and bulkier than the originals, I've seen Long lands weigh up to nearly 12 lbs and the Pedersoli 1763 Charleville weighs about 11 lbs, the heaviest French Charleville weighed 10 lbs and they quickly revamped that gun.

 

[Eutycus]

I was reading about the de la Pena diary and Davy Crocketts death. He mentions Crocketts "Stature". From what I read Crockett wasn't even a 6 footer. But I suppose he was pretty tall to the Mexicans?

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Therefore alot of "hipshots" took place at the Alamo. But I feel all that was just that, a Story

And likely a story told by a person who has never fired a service round from The Brown Bess from the hip....,
You get a face full of smoke and sparks directed upward from that pan, especially when using 2Fg.
You think it's going to be a "cool" thing to do and then you try it and you find out, "That don't work".

LD

 

[Artificer]

And likely a story told by a person who has never fired a service round from The Brown Bess from the hip....,
You get a face full of smoke and sparks directed upward from that pan, especially when using 2Fg.
You think it's going to be a "cool" thing to do and then you try it and you find out, "That don't work".

LD

There probably was some firing from the hip as Santa Anna's Army got inside the Alamo and fighting got to very close quarters. Still, I agree w/Dave one really doesn't want to fire a Bess from the hip unless absolutely necessary.

Also, if units of Santa Anna's Army were loading and firing and then ordered to charge with bayonets, some muskets may/would have still been loaded. The position of holding the musket w/fixed bayonet during a charge and soldiers firing from that position during the bayonet charge, might also be called firing from the hip.

Gus

 

[Eutycus]

I've never fired a Brown Bess (or any gun) from the hip, but from what I've read so far it doesn't sound like a "pleasant" experience.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I've never fired a Brown Bess (or any gun) from the hip, but from what I've read so far it doesn't sound like a "pleasant" experience

I've been trained on firing a modern shotgun from the hip, so..., "heck a Bess should be the same"

Not so much....

LD

 

[Eric Krewson]

I have unloaded my flinters from the hip a bunch of times after a hunt and after dark, no problems whatsoever.

 

[DaveC]

Based on archaeological finds it seems the vast majority of Mexican infantry in the 1830s were armed with Napoleonic-era surplus India-pattern Tower muskets--"Brown Besses" that had a 39-in. barrel and overall length (sans bayonet) of 55 inches. Oddly enough, a New Land Pattern light infantry musket has also been found, so by no means did Mexico re-equip its armed forces--such as they were--with the India-pattern exclusively.

Paget carbines and "scuppets" or escopetas found favor with mounted troops. It is widely thought that the cazadores or light infantry within the Battalions used shorter NCO-length muskets for the most part--confusingly in Spanish, a "carabina" while the true carbine used by cavalry is a "tercerola." Some cazadores used the Baker rifle with its sewn-on linen patching and 1 turn in 120 inches rate of twist. In fact, it was just such a weapon that claimed the life of Ol' Ben Milam in December 1835. One of the principal drawbacks of Mexican arms was the terrible quality of the gunpowder, which apparently had too much charcoal and indifferent storage issues.

It has been asserted that poorly disciplined or indifferently trained troops might have "couched" the butt in their arm pit, with the butt between the body and upper arm to alleviate felt recoil from the metal butt plate against the shoulder pocket. It is also sometimes claimed that troops "flinch" or shut their eyes in anticipation of the flash from the pan when the musket discharges. One grisly thing to contemplate about the final stage of the siege of the Alamo is that Santa Anna insisted that the arms be in tip top shape, "particularly the bayonets." While speculative, it is not hard to imagine that NCOs and junior officers were expecting to find bloody bayonets on each and every musket after the battle as a sign that the soldiery (likened to so many "chickens" by López de Santa Anna!) had done their duty. I expect that soldiers stabbed any and all fallen defenders, wounded or already dead. The Texian defenders were unable to spike the cannon, and these were duly reloaded and turned on them by the attackers prior to the series of bitter and desperate close quarter engagements fought in every room.

 

[FlinterNick]

I've fired a Brown Bess from the hip; only on the fourth of July.

 

[DaveC]

Happy 4th of July! :thumbs up: