missing buttplates

[thecapgunkid]

Sitting on the front hook of the ceiling at Dixons Muzzleloading shop in Pa., where all the really sexy rifles are hung, is ( or was if it sold) a partially completed rifle, in the white, with a rounded butt that had no butt plate on it. It was clearly finished enough to imply intent to finalize it that way.

I left the checkbook home, so clearly the saints and angels are watching out for me. The lust of the moment has been tempered by distance and time, but I would like to procure and finish a simple rifle with a little incise on it.

Lately I have seen a number of photos, including one in this forum, that show rifles with no butt plate.

How common was this, or is it a 21st century phenom?

If it dates back, is there a particular area or time span these were seen?

The suspense is killin' me.

 

[robert reed]

Appalachian poor boy stye. Lots of Carolina guns had no buttplate. Don't know how far back it goes, but I have seen numerous originals in flint and percussion, hand scraped, grease hole on stock. I to lust for one, just too cheap and too many ex-wives and kids. :redface:

 

[Many Klatch]

I have heard them called Schimmel (SP?) or in Indiana they were called Hawg Guns. You don't really need a buttplate. I built one years ago, I put one big nail in the top of the butt for the gun to rest on while loading. Painted the rest of the butt red. Some of those guns reportedly didn't even have trigger guards. Not many survived, they were used up and recycled.

 

[Keb]

One down side of no butt plate is it makes the gun more muzzle heavy. An added benefit of having a butt plate is it adds some weight to the rear of the gun.

 

[Captjoel]

Even across the great pond, rifle's were made without butt plates. This SxS cape gun was made mid 19th century and appears to have been converted to percussion.

 

[Twisted_1in66]

Even across the great pond, rifle's were made without butt plates. This SxS cape gun was made mid 19th century and appears to have been converted to percussion.

Notice the crack in the butt of the stock from the lack of a butt-plate? That's pretty common with guns that don't have butt-plates. Back in the day there was no such name as a barn gun or a poor-boy. Those are all names that have been applied in modern times. Very few extant examples of what we call poor-boys or barn guns exist and they are in terrible condition. Most of them show evidence of repair and sometimes lock conversions. In the picture above, notice the patchbox cover is also missing. It's not a grease-hole, it's a patchbox with a missing cover and it's pretty rare to actually have a patchbox without butt plate. The release for the patch-box cover with one exception that I'm aware of was always sunk into the butt-plate.

There is also quite a debate on whether or not even the cheapest gun you could buy would or would not have a butt-plate. Bear in mind that the brass used for the butt-plate, trigger-guard, ramrod pipes, and end-cap was cheap, readily available, and took comparatively little time to complete. Most of the labor and the cost of the gun went into hammer forge welding a wrought iron skelp into a barrel. Adding a butt plate to a basic rifle would add almost nothing to the price of it. Hard for me to imagine that someone would spend almost a year's wages and not protect the butt with a butt-plate. Take another look at that picture to see what happens when you don't use one.

Until Remington pioneered deep drill manufacturing in the 1840's to make rifle barrels out of solid iron, barrel making was extremely laborious. So, if you are imitating a flintlock (or percussion) from the 1840's, then it might have some relevance to the price difference.

HOWEVER...if you just like the looks of one without the buttplate and are not concerned about historical relevance, just get what you like and don't worry about it. But be aware, that if you use it a lot in the field without a butt-plate it will start to split at some point.

Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:

 

[Captjoel]

Oh, but twisted, this rifle does have a patch box lid. It also has a "steel button" placed right where a butt plates rear extension would normally be. The crack in the butt stock is simply from ageing.

 

[hoochiepapa]

Never thought it would happen...
I'm drooling!

 

[robert reed]

You sir have never seen a southern mountain rifle from the carolinas. A grease hole is just that, a hole drilled by hand with a spade bit.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
George Neuman shows a simple Rev War vintage rifle in his "Battle Weapons of the American Revolution" that has no buttplate and just a grease hole. It is an interesting rifle because the tapered mostly octagon barrel is square in cross section for the first 9 inches from the breech. It is currently in the museum at Valley Forge. George Shumway shows at least one utilitarian rifle in his "Rifles in Colonial America" with no buttplate. The Colonial Williamsburg Foundation has a French and Indian War period fowling gun with no buttplate. Utilitarian guns with no buttplates probably span our entire colonial period and were not a feature only of later Appalachian guns. I am sure most never made it to the 21st century.

dave

 

[54ball]

The hardware is also hand forged iron. There are 2 plain iron thimbles and no entry pipe. Two wood screws hold the 3 7/8 inch spear shaped tang. The rifle has a LOP of 14.5 inches, the drop at heel is 3.25 inches which is straighter than later Gillespie rifles but the exact same as the twin mentioned earlier. The rifle has no butt plate. The grease box is rectangular shaped like other early Gillespie’s, remnant of the bear grease and beeswax patch lube is still present in the box. The stock is American Black Walnut and has a cheek rest with a single incised line.

1810 GillespieLink

I have seen photos of a John Bull circa 1815-20 rifle with a toeplate and heelplate but no buttplate in between. It was very ornate for a Tennessee and even had a patchbox

Some high end double shotguns and custom rifles were made with no buttplates well into the 20th century, on some of these the buttplate is carved and at first glance it would appear to have a buttplate.

 

[Twisted_1in66]

You sir have never seen a southern mountain rifle from the carolinas. A grease hole is just that, a hole drilled by hand with a spade bit.

I have indeed seen a grease hole. I presume you misunderstood my message - perhaps I wasn't clear. I know exactly what a grease hole looks like and was pointing out that the Side by Side pictured did not have a grease hole but a patchbox without the lid.

Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:

 

[Twisted_1in66]

Hey Captjoel,

Thanks for posting that picture from the butt end with the wooden patch box in place. The release is exactly where it would be on one with butt cap. I've never seen that before, so thanks again.

The crack due to aging, in my opinion, is at least partly due to the fact that there is no butt plate on it. There are plenty of extant flintlock rifles from the 18th century that have butt plates and no cracks from aging coming up from the butt. Certainly, if the stock weathered badly, that would also make it split but that doesn't appear to be the case.

The side by side and rifle that you have there are both stunning! Interesting to see the full stock on the rifle since it's a percussion arm, or do you think that one is a conversion? Half-stocks were the norm in America shortly after percussion arms came out, but I do like the look of the full-stock rifle.

The length forearm of the top one looks significantly shorter than normal. Is it just the angle of the picture or does it really have a short forearm?

Thanks,
Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:

 

[longrifle78]

There were quite a few old rifles made without a butt plate. this is a copy of a north Carolina rifle I built.

 

[Blackbruin]

Schimmel or barn gun. You don't need a buttplate. Can be done in any school you want, working on a bucks co schimmel as we speak....

 

[thecapgunkid]

Thanks, guys. I'm Good. Got all my answers.

Besides, I'm a shoemaker. Who's to say some shoemaker back then didn't slap a piece of sole leather on the butt?? Hhhmmm...

 

[Captjoel]

That's pretty good Greg! I just love a good gun with SOLE (SOUL) :rotf:

 

[Capt. Jas.]

 

[Larry Pletcher]

I have long wanted a rifle made by Allen Martin, this is a Bucks County Schimmel. The only departure from a very plain schimmel was that I told him I really liked pretty wood. Other than that he made the decisions.





Regards,
Pletch

 

[BigBoreBLR]

Nice rifle allen made there,

MY friend has a 62 cal jaeger he made and loves it.

Are the lockbolts just inleted by themselves with no sort of plate or washer of some sort?