Newly discovered Early Flintlock Rifle?

[Loyalist Dave]

Very interesting!

Is it also possible the owner/customer wanted the re-stock more alike to then "current fashion/style" to what was then being currently made or even just changed to fit him better?

Gus

Actually we are forgetting that unlike the muskets, the rifles were the personal property of each Jaeger. They were not owned by their Prince as were their muskets. Add to that the fact that the surrendering troops at Yorktown, had no way of knowing the major battles of the AWI would be over. Thus, as they were personal property, the owner was free to break the stock at the wrist, etc. to prevent it from being used by the capturing force, while the musketmen were not free to do the same to their muskets. So perhaps the reason for the American maple restock was because the German stock was purposely damage beyond repair. ???

LD

 

[Rod Man]

I guess the better question would be how many Jaeger Battalions were amongst the Hessians hired by the British to fight in North America?

And, what happened to any captured rifles?

Could the above-mentioned rifle be a re-stock of a damaged captured battle rifle?

Was wondering the same.

Killion

 

[Artificer]

Actually we are forgetting that unlike the muskets, the rifles were the personal property of each Jaeger. They were not owned by their Prince as were their muskets. Add to that the fact that the surrendering troops at Yorktown, had no way of knowing the major battles of the AWI would be over. Thus, as they were personal property, the owner was free to break the stock at the wrist, etc. to prevent it from being used by the capturing force, while the musketmen were not free to do the same to their muskets. So perhaps the reason for the American maple restock was because the German stock was purposely damage beyond repair. ???

LD

I think we may be getting ahead of ourselves on suggesting this rifle could have been a re-stocked, captured German Jaeger Rifle from the AWI?

That lock looks way too early to have been used on such a rifle, doesn't it?

Gus

 

[rich pierce]

Gus, several disparate thoughts:

I think the short jaeger rifle belonging to Captain Vromannin the Revolutionary War may possibly have been captured from Hessians at Saratoga. Just one possibility.

The lock on this gun is certainly of a form common in the early 1700s but some other features of the gun are later. That guard doesn’t “fit” what an American customer would seem to want. So, no easy narrative to understand its origin. It could be a composite gun.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I think we may be getting ahead of ourselves on suggesting this rifle could have been a re-stocked, captured German Jaeger Rifle from the AWI?

That lock looks way too early to have been used on such a rifle, doesn't it?

Gus

It's tougher to date locks made in Germany, and they were using unbridled frizzens on Indian Trade Rifles in the 19th century. I think this barrel is mated to this lock, so IF the lock is old would not the barrel be equally as old?

LD

 

[Artificer]

Gus, several disparate thoughts:

I think the short jaeger rifle belonging to Captain Vromannin the Revolutionary War may possibly have been captured from Hessians at Saratoga. Just one possibility.

The lock on this gun is certainly of a form common in the early 1700s but some other features of the gun are later. That guard doesn’t “fit” what an American customer would seem to want. So, no easy narrative to understand its origin. It could be a composite gun.

That's interesting, Rich,

I did some searching last night on Jaeger armed troops at Saratoga, but what I found in my decidedly limited search was there was only one company of them at Saratoga and it seems most (or all) of them got away before being captured? Still, it's possible some of them got captured. I would not take this information as chiseled in stone, though, as I was a bit frustrated in finding out information on the Jaeger armed troops at Saratoga. There could be much more than I was able to learn last night.

I was wondering about that guard as well for a rifle re-stocked in the 1770's.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

It's tougher to date locks made in Germany, and they were using unbridled frizzens on Indian Trade Rifles in the 19th century. I think this barrel is mated to this lock, so IF the lock is old would not the barrel be equally as old?

LD

Hi Dave,

Small Arms of British Forces in America, 1664-1815, by De Witt Bailey shows a Pattern 1776 Infantry rifle made by A. H. Huhnstock, Hanover (German State) with an unbridled frizzen on pages 177-178; so you are correct that feature lasted longer on German guns than we might think.
However, the entire lock on this rifle looks earlier to much earlier than that.

Same book, Plate 10-8 on page 184 shows an example of a Rifle carried by the Hesse-Kassel Feldjaegercorps (sorry I don't know how to type the Umlaut over the "a"), made by Pistor in Schmalkaden, and the Hesse-Hanau Freicorps by Schwalbach in Hanau. Bailey notes this last model was the only one fitted for bayonets, used here in America. However, this rifle has a pan bridle and again looks much more modern in style.

Yes, it is possible the lock and barrel were both original to the same rifle, if not probable. To me, that suggests it could not have been a rifle carried by Jaeger armed German troops here in the AWI?

Gus

 

[rich pierce]

That's interesting, Rich,

I did some searching last night on Jaeger armed troops at Saratoga, but what I found in my decidedly limited search was there was only one company of them at Saratoga and it seems most (or all) of them got away before being captured? Still, it's possible some of them got captured. I would not take this information as chiseled in stone, though, as I was a bit frustrated in finding out information on the Jaeger armed troops at Saratoga. There could be much more than I was able to learn last night.

I was wondering about that guard as well for a rifle re-stocked in the 1770's.

Gus

Gus, I’m not a history scholar; just the guns for the most part. Don’t mean to sidetrack this discussion. I think that the rifle we are discussing raises lots of interesting questions and challenges some concepts. Let’s say that in the 1760s forward, purpose built and designed new rifles from new parts were being made in a swath of gun making centers. They varied in style but had some common characteristics, such as barrels normally 38” or so and longer. We don’t know whether local interest and demand drove styles we now recognize as “schools” or whether makers just built what they wanted and customers bought what was being made locally, for example. I guess I’m saying we don’t know how much style changes were driven by customer demands versus builder design direction. Either way, when we see a short gun from the same era, not fitting into a familiar style, we are stumped regarding both builder and customer. Who built it and why? For me, the simplest explanation is that a customer took a busted gun to a local maker and requested a re-stock.

 

[skwerleater]

German rifles may have been in existence in the Schoharie Valley in NY as the Germans settled there in the very early 1700’s. The Germans existed alongside the Dutch for a long period. Vrohman settles there and he had a German rifle.

 

[JCKelly]

AWI, AWI - just love all these @%#$! abbreviations

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Same book, Plate 10-8 on page 184 shows an example of a Rifle carried by the Hesse-Kassel Feldjaegercorps (sorry I don't know how to type the Umlaut over the "a"), made by Pistor in Schmalkaden, and the Hesse-Hanau Freicorps by Schwalbach in Hanau. Bailey notes this last model was the only one fitted for bayonets, used here in America. However, this rifle has a pan bridle and again looks much more modern in style.

Yes, it is possible the lock and barrel were both original to the same rifle, if not probable. To me, that suggests it could not have been a rifle carried by Jaeger armed German troops here in the AWI?

See I'm not sure that anybody can say that, even De Witt Bailey. There were several different groups of Jaegers brought over during the AWI, from different principalities. Hesse-Kassel, Hesse-Hanau, Anhalt Zerbst, Ansbach-Bayreuth and I think one more which I can't remember. The other three principalities were Hanover, Brunswick and Waldeck... not sure which one of them also fielded Jaegers. They were grouped into larger units here in America for some of the war and at other times they were broken down into smaller units. As such nobody really knows details about what they carried..., there was absolutely no standardization. While we would look at their rifles and see short barrel, large caliber, full stocked, with a Germanic trigger guard..., and say "Jaeger", the details of every lock the exact shape of every trigger guard, etc simply isn't known. There is no way we could say there was even a trend other than the previous characteristics that I mentioned.

So while I'm not saying the rifle IS a restocked German Jaeger from the AWI German troops, I don't think it can be ruled out.

LD

 

[Artificer]

AWI, AWI - just love all these @%#$! abbreviations

FIW = French and Indian War
AWI = American War of Independence/Revolutionary War.

It is just WAY easier to use the initials then type it all out each time.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

See I'm not sure that anybody can say that, even De Witt Bailey. There were several different groups of Jaegers brought over during the AWI, from different principalities. Hesse-Kassel, Hesse-Hanau, Anhalt Zerbst, Ansbach-Bayreuth and I think one more which I can't remember. The other three principalities were Hanover, Brunswick and Waldeck... not sure which one of them also fielded Jaegers. They were grouped into larger units here in America for some of the war and at other times they were broken down into smaller units. As such nobody really knows details about what they carried..., there was absolutely no standardization. While we would look at their rifles and see short barrel, large caliber, full stocked, with a Germanic trigger guard..., and say "Jaeger", the details of every lock the exact shape of every trigger guard, etc simply isn't known. There is no way we could say there was even a trend other than the previous characteristics that I mentioned.

So while I'm not saying the rifle IS a restocked German Jaeger from the AWI German troops, I don't think it can be ruled out.

LD

OK, Fair point.

However, I think that trigger guard would be a dead giveaway on whether or not it came here carried by German Jaegers in the AWI. If it can't be identified to any type of German Jaeger identified to have been used here, then it seems to me it is at least very unlikely it came here that way.

Gus

 

[vintovka]

Sorry if already noted but i see a hole in the forend for a possible sling swivel. I do not see a place for the rear swivel. May be plugged. The use of slings on Jaegers is interesting to me. Also the selling price of 35K is somewhat astounding!!

 

[ekettenburg]

There are a couple of Pistor-signed "Hessian" rifles with an almost identical guard, the piece illustrated in RCA1 being the most well-known example. Whether they were actually used here or not is not certain to my mind, but they certainly are military pieces. I know I've seen a couple of others by other makers as well with the same type of guard if not identical.

I'm not sure if that forward hole in the forearm is a sling hanger hole or just a wallowed out pin hole. It's definitely in the location for the forward pin, given the spacing of the other two, and both of those also look pretty wallowed or opened up (worn). I don;t really see anywhere for a rear hanger either, although there is a curious mark on the lower toe flat behind the guard that *might* be a broken off screw (for a button) but I kind of doubt it, looks too small. Might just be a coincidental ding.

I would not personally ascribe much meaning to this lock, given the obvious reconversion work already executed. Pistor's locks also were fairly heavily curved, probably more so that civilian arms of the same era, and possibly this was to accomodate the stout wrist and fairly distinctive stock shaping of these military pieces. There were a whole range of stock shapings, furnishings and decorative preferences used all over the German speaking lands just as a variety of different styles can be seen in American work.

 

[Brokennock]

Question and a theory.
Questions, are there any parts on the rifle that maybe we're not on the original stock that van not be dated earlier than the AWI?
IF not, and all the parts except that the wood is from here, is it a reasonable assumption that can be somewhat agreed on that this is a group of parts from one or more guns that was restocked here?

Assuming all the above, and given the inexpert nature of the work as described...
My theory/hypothesis, maybe this is a restock of an older broken gun owned by and done by an apprentice or other beginning layman. Possibly done very early, 1760s or earlier?
Could an apprentice builder have bought it with an already broken stock? Maybe the master took it in trade for parts value on a new gun and the apprentice or someone else close to the master made a deal for the parts and for help doing the work?

 

[lexington1]

Wouldn't it save a lot of speculation if it was carefully disassembled to see if the pins were redrilled for the furniture? At least we could determine if the furniture was reused in a restock or not. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Artificer]

There are a couple of Pistor-signed "Hessian" rifles with an almost identical guard, the piece illustrated in RCA1 being the most well-known example. Whether they were actually used here or not is not certain to my mind, but they certainly are military pieces. I know I've seen a couple of others by other makers as well with the same type of guard if not identical.

I'm not sure if that forward hole in the forearm is a sling hanger hole or just a wallowed out pin hole. It's definitely in the location for the forward pin, given the spacing of the other two, and both of those also look pretty wallowed or opened up (worn). I don;t really see anywhere for a rear hanger either, although there is a curious mark on the lower toe flat behind the guard that *might* be a broken off screw (for a button) but I kind of doubt it, looks too small. Might just be a coincidental ding.

I would not personally ascribe much meaning to this lock, given the obvious reconversion work already executed. Pistor's locks also were fairly heavily curved, probably more so that civilian arms of the same era, and possibly this was to accomodate the stout wrist and fairly distinctive stock shaping of these military pieces. There were a whole range of stock shapings, furnishings and decorative preferences used all over the German speaking lands just as a variety of different styles can be seen in American work.

Great info. Thank you.

Gus

 

[springfield art]

Folks, I just tripped across this while looking for something else. Not sure if anyone had seen it previously or knows anything about it?


View attachment 93169


View attachment 93170

I can't speak to the accuracy of the write up from the link, but here it is:

"This rifle turned up in Western Pennsylvania, where it has remained for nearly 70 years. It has not been previously photographed, published, or offered publicly. For an example of a rifle with very similar relief carving, buttstock and comb architecture, and trigger guard finial, see rifle number 98 on pages 430 to 433 of "Volume II: Rifles of Colonial America" by George Shumway. The rifle shown in the book has extremely similar features and is signed "J.P. Beck", who began his gunsmithing career in 1772 or 1773, according to Shumway. He worked in Lebanon, Pennsylvania. Like this example, the rifle in the book also has an unusual original single-set trigger mechanism. The early heavily swamped octagonal barrel has deep eight groove rifling and a dovetailed silver front sight. One of the bottom flats is stamped with a sunken cartouche of an ax, towards the breech. The notched rear sight is in the German style and once has a folding leaf for longer distances mounted in front of the fixed sight. The early banana lockplate is Germanic in style and has three engraved lines near the tail as well as an unbridled pan. The Germanic brass furniture is cast and un-engraved. The buttplate has a three-stage stepped tang retained near the tip with a screw. The Jaeger-style trigger guard terminates with fleur-de-lis style finials ending with a ball at both ends. The trigger floorplate also mimics this design. The early ramrod ferrules have vase-and-ring turnings and the nosecap is retained to the barrel by a screw in the center of the ramrod channel. Nosecap is decorated with a wedding band. The sideplate shows Moravuian Christian Springs influence and has beveled edges and two moldings surrounded on each side by engraved lines. This early example was made without a toeplate. The full-length highly figured American maple stock shows very early form with a wide butt measuring 2-3/8" across the buttplate at the widest point. There is a sliding wooden patchbox on the right side, although the lid is an improper replacement and the four "C's" carved in front of it were added later. The left side features a molded relief cheekpiece with foliate scrolls on the left and a larger C-scroll with relief scrolls forming an "A" just as the J.P. Beck rifle in Shumway shows. There are also shaped relief panels around the lock and sideplate terminating in teardrop shapes at the back. There is a stylized relief shell design with incised decoration surrounding the barrel tang as well as relief carving around the comb. The ramrod is a contemporary replacement. For another example of a rifle with similar furniture, buttstock profile and carving, see the Johann Adolph Doll rifle on pages 67 - 76 of "Moravian Gunmaking II" by Robert Lienemann. The William Antes rifle on page 97 of "Moravian Gun Making of the Revolution" by the Kentucky Rifle Association and Kentucky Rifle Foundation has a nearly identical sideplate and similar carving, as well. CONDITION: Barrel retains a mostly brown surface and shows some wear and scratches. Lockplate is original but lock is a good professional reconversion, functions properly. Furniture shows scattered marks from use and some wear, retains a mustard patina. Foremost ramrod ferrule shows some denting. Stock retains a pleasing patina with much original dark finish in protected areas. Stock shows heavy wear, minor chipping, and some hairline cracks. No wood has been added or restored. A very important and early American Jaeger rifle that clearly depicts the German roots of later "Kentucky" Longrifles. DMG
Accessories

Barrel Length 30 - 3/4"
Caliber/Bore .65 Rifled"


Lot Detail - (A) EARLY NEWLY DISCOVERED PRE-REVOLUTIONARY WAR AMERICAN FLINTLOCK JAEGER RIFLE. (morphyauctions.com)

Gus

Looks like a high-quality, but modern made, gun. Maybe because it's in such nice condition. Good photos, thanks.

 

[vintovka]

I looked carefully at both the forearm and toe area using the magnification feature. Given the "wallow" around the forearm hole it looks like a poorly fit swivel hole worn from long and hard use. Maybe owner at the time did a DIY install of a wire or something and attached a sling there and looped other end around stock wrist or thru trigger guard. If so the owner at the time carried it quite a bit. I hope current owner handles/displays it carefully as I think i see many cracks especially the one at the wrist. Dropping it might be a $35,000 disaster.