Newly discovered Early Flintlock Rifle?

[ekettenburg]

It's certainly been disassembled probably multiple times. Definitely when the reconversion was done, and since Morphy's illustrates the bottom of the barrel, they've obviously disassembled it also.

I don't put much stock in pin holes telling the whole story anymore. Most guys who have worked on these for any length of time can - with a bit of care - pretty easily hit existing pin holes even with hand tools. Actually more likely with hand tools than with power tools! I assume those old dudes could as well. And if you're willing to go up a bit in pin size, it gets even easier. Conversely, if underlugs were replaced 250 years ago, could we tell? If a portion of the trigger lug was filed down to remove a high pin hole, and one drilled lower 250 years ago, could we tell?

 

[ekettenburg]

I can't spcifically say why, but it's just my gut and experience I've accumulated at this point in my life and research telling me that this gun is very late 1760s at absolute earliest, but probably later. JMHO.

Don;t mean that in a derogatory fashion - it doesn;t have to be super early to be interesting. I do find it very interesting regardless of when it was stocked.

 

[lexington1]

I getcha on the pins holes, but if there were two sets of pin holes I would think that it would at least greatly hint at a second stocking of the furniture. Also, it's just been my general observation that a lot of the old makers were not too interested in the interior work. I've seen quite a few really nice German guns that were actually quite rough on the inside areas in regards to inletting, etc. Just my random thoughts..

 

[ekettenburg]

Absolutely, you're 100% correct on that, both points.

 

[Eterry]

Gus, I’m not a history scholar; just the guns for the most part. Don’t mean to sidetrack this discussion. I think that the rifle we are discussing raises lots of interesting questions and challenges some concepts. Let’s say that in the 1760s forward, purpose built and designed new rifles from new parts were being made in a swath of gun making centers. They varied in style but had some common characteristics, such as barrels normally 38” or so and longer. We don’t know whether local interest and demand drove styles we now recognize as “schools” or whether makers just built what they wanted and customers bought what was being made locally, for example. I guess I’m saying we don’t know how much style changes were driven by customer demands versus builder design direction. Either way, when we see a short gun from the same era, not fitting into a familiar style, we are stumped regarding both builder and customer. Who built it and why? For me, the simplest explanation is that a customer took a busted gun to a local maker and requested a re-stock.

That's the first thing that came to mind when I saw the photos. Any one of a dozen things could have happened to it to break the stock, and some where in its life someone had it re-stocked.

Much speculation and conjecture is applied to antique items without provenance, which is why provenance makes the value increase astronomically.

"If only it could talk " certainly applies here.

 

[excess650]

I saw the rifle in person in the spring of 2020 and my immediate reaction was a re-stock. The dealer was pushing "Moravian", and likewise, Morphy's suggesting a Moravian or Beck, or....all a wildassed guess. IMO, too much $$ for something that doesn't even have an attribution, let alone provenance.

 

[vintovka]

9 people bid on it and sold for 35K way under their inflated estimate. One good drop and it would be in 2 or more pieces the sum of which would be a micro fraction of selling price.

 

[ekettenburg]

Unfortunately "Moravian" is being thrown around WAY too often now.

"Oooh, this screw head is 7/32" in diameter, just like a screw head on a signed Oerter rifle! It must be

MORAVIAN!!!!!

 

[Artificer]

Unfortunately "Moravian" is being thrown around WAY too often now.

"Oooh, this screw head is 7/32" in diameter, just like a screw head on a signed Oerter rifle! It must be

MORAVIAN!!!!!

Thanks to my Sister doing extensive genealogical research on different family lines from PA, I know just about enough to not screw up this question too badly. At least I hope so.

Has anyone done any research connecting PA rifle gunsmiths back through their religious lines and/or from which Germanic States they came from?

Also, I imagine (and could be completely wrong) that their early work might at least resemble the different styles of the Germanic States they came from? If this is true, are there things we can recognize in their work as having come from the original forms of rifles they built in the old country in the different Germanic States?

Oh, since many of the German settlers spent time in Switzerland to escape persecution before they came over, did that experience influence their rifles as well?

Gus

 

[vintovka]

Just a side note. There are two Bresslers in my wifes family tree that were recruited as "expert riflemen" for AWI from Berks Co PA. Family dates to 1698 in Nieder Hochstadt auf alte Deutschland. Wonder what they would have used? Golden age or captured Jaegers?

 

[Pete G]

Just a side note. There are two Bresslers in my wifes family tree that were recruited as "expert riflemen" for AWI from Berks Co PA. Family dates to 1698 in Nieder Hochstadt auf alte Deutschland. Wonder what they would have used? Golden age or captured Jaegers?

Since the "golden age" of rifle making happened after the war for independence they probably did not use them yet.

 

[vintovka]

Since the "golden age" of rifle making happened after the war for independence they probably did not use them yet.

Sorry new to the really early stuff and terminology.

 

[Rudyard]

I have a Rifle on the same lines as the West point T W Pistor it has a bayonet provision We thought it might be revolt war and at De Witts urging I loaned it to Herman Benninghoff . Finally got it home it B 'net number no147 & De Witt thinks its one of the 1,012 Rifles got up in Germany for Prince Eugene's rifle regiment round about 1800 a 'Pre Baker' in a way . I went to the Leeds RA & recorded some 6 or so rifles the same & numbered in the same way on the B net bars .

Only point relative to this learned discourse it the stocking style is just the same Suhl stepped wrist & wooden tool boxes mounts all the same if no wrist escuction & the expected variation of the modest carving details . takes a ball of 600 and swamped 28" Oct brl Ile look but I don't recall an external bridle ,Of note All these rifles where paid for by British Ordnance yet non are proofed or bear any store keepers mark or BO ect . I showed it to George Shumway he simply said" It's a Jager " If the West Point Rifle is Revolt war then 30 years of design was no different . Maple leaf guard finial , same butt style , Same difference .Not that Ime trying to make any point just that the subject interests me ..
Regards Rudyard

 

[Captjoel]

Adding more speculation to captured Germanic short rifles from the Rev War, I'm surprised nobody mentioned the battle of Trenton that took place after Washington's crossing of the Delaware. Seems to me that a lot of those rifles would have found their way into our sides hands from the number of captured and killed Hessian mercenaries in that battle.

Just one more idea that came to my mind with the Morphy rifles description about the tomahawk stamped barrel marking. Jacob Dickert was noted for using this mark on most of his longrifle barrels. Wonder if it could have been restocked in his busy shop during those war years from a captured piece in need of repairs.

 

[Uncle Miltie]

That was auctioned at Morphy's last November (2020). It's pretty clearly a restocked German rifle, imho judging by the carving style, probably late 1760s or 1770s restock. Lock is reconverted and box is a replacement, some other small work too I think but I'll have to go back and look at the auction listing. Pretty interesting rifle.

Agree. It happened pretty often, when a busted up old rifle was rebuilt with a new stock or when parts were salvaged from a worn out gun.

 

[Rudyard]

Hi,
I agree with Eric's assessment. For another tantalizing factoid, in Rene Chartrand's book "French Military Arms and Armor in America" on page 57 he lists a 1660 inventory of arms in Chateau St. Louis in Quebec City. In that inventory are listed 84 matchlock muskets, 25 matchlock musket barrels, 10 pistols, and 37 rifled carbines such as they are. Now what the heck did they look like.

dave

Good question .Interesting area to delve into .
Regards Rudyard