Modern vs. Antique Muzzle Loaders for Film and TV

[Zac]

Thank you everyone for your responses and information! Very informative and helpful. Special thanks to those who helped identify the similarities and differences of the multiple types of guns.

 

[renegadehunter]

Since you're talking about capturing muzzle flash, I have to share. Here is a sequence of the flash and smoke from a modern caplock shot at dusk. This was a 100 grain charge of ff real black powder. The projectile streak/path being shown is not normal, it was a concave base conical that had been loaded for a while and some powder must've been stuck in the base. The last picture is the flash from the same charge but fired in full daylight.

 

[just4fun63]

Zac, the most important thing to take away from this discussion is to use real Black Powder. Substitute black powder does not make the same smoke or flash.
I’m sure some of your local Muzzleloading people would be glad to help

 

[Sun City]

The so-called modern ML is basically an amalgamated morphodite that came about because the manufacturers thereof were aware that the potential buyers know nothing of history, have no calling to historical events or usage of the original muzzleloaders to which this forum is dedicated! Apples to oranges don't compare!

 

[crankshaft]

Long Barrels. Long.

TV and movie actors don't like carrying around long heavy bbls. producers shortened barrels or acquired short barrel rifles.

eg. Tom Selleck didn't want to lug around a 14# Sharps so they made one with an aluminum barrel in Quimby Down Under.

Real men.....Do not use short barrels.

 

[oldwood]

Last of the Mohicans star , Daniel Day Lewis didn't mind carrying a 9 # longrifle throughout the movie. When themovie was finished , he ordered a few more duplicates to take home. charlie

 

[crankshaft]

Last of the Mohicans star , Daniel Day Lewis didn't mind carrying a 9 # longrifle throughout the movie. When themovie was finished , he ordered a few more duplicates to take home. charlie

ya sure, good for him. So what.

The Revenat
producers wanted cut off bbls and they got that.

 

[Rudyard]

The ' Sargent Harper' of the' Sharpes ' series didn't like guns & mostly carried a fibreglass volley gun, and the one fired was got up from the back action of a old French musket percussion lock & the front end was the front half of a ' Grice' flint lock , the cock of which was fitted to the tumbler of the French cap lock . All the rest where Indian made Bakers & India Pattern muskets . I knew the armourers . Rudyard

 

[TFoley]

Iraqveteran8888 on Youtube actually gets to handle Tom Selleck's Sharps at the auction where it was sold. Shure'nuff didn't look like any kind of an alOOminum barrel to me.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Private Message Sent.

LD

 

[springfield art]

ya sure, good for him. So what.

The Revenat
producers wanted cut off bbls and they got that.

Wait, he "ordered a few more duplicates" of a custom-made muzzleloader??

 

[Rudyard]

I heard that John Bivens made two rifles accurate to the period but the director said' No its too short ' So they hung in the office & others more to His idea got made . No idea now true this was but seems plausible . Rudyard

 

[crankshaft]

Iraqveteran8888 on Youtube actually gets to handle Tom Selleck's Sharps at the auction where it was sold. Shure'nuff didn't look like any kind of an alOOminum barrel to me.

Well hell, knothead, it was the one that was shot,
not the prop gun lugged around in some scenes.
Got it?

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I heard that John Bivens made two rifles accurate to the period but the director said' No its too short ' So they hung in the office & others more to His idea got made . No idea now true this was but seems plausible

Daniel Day Lewis played Hawkeye in Last of The Mohicans using a completely wrong pattern, flintlock rifle. I actually wrote to the builder and got a reply. He made what was ordered by the production company. He would've put a propeller on the thing IF they had ordered it.

I've been involved in several TV productions using muzzle loaders. The directors do whatever they think is "cool" in many instances. In the swamp-ambush-scene in The Patriot, where in the aftermath they discover Cornwallis' personal effects and two dogs..., and one character says, "I say we drink the wine, eat the dogs, and use the paper for musket wadding...", the director wanted the ambush to start with the Rebels COMING OUT of THE WATER after having been fully submerged, like "Navy Seals"..., and the director was quite miffed when he was told the muskets can't work if they do that. The scene as shot shows the Rebels hiding behind trees in the swamp, then coming out from behind the trees to shoot.

A director, even one doing a historic drama, often knows very little about the history and even less about firearms. Another good example is the TV series, Jamestown.

LD

 

[TFoley]

Well hell, knothead, it was the one that was shot, not the prop gun lugged around in some scenes.
Got it?

Oh wow, really? I mean, wow! Cool, and wow, REALLY really? Gee, even. Now why didn't I think of that that? I must be soooooooooooooo freakin' stoopid.

 

[Rat]

One could just get a pipe, cap the end, drill a hole for a fuse, load it up lightly and get the desired effect.

I'm not sure that when the OP says: "modern muzzle loaders" if they are referring to what we know as modern muzzle loaders, or if the reference is to reproduction muzzle loaders, as opposed to antiques. ?

 

[TFoley]

One could just get a pipe, cap the end, drill a hole for a fuse, load it up lightly and get the desired effect.

I'm not sure that when the OP says: "modern muzzle loaders" if they are referring to what we know as modern muzzle loaders, or if the reference is to reproduction muzzle loaders, as opposed to antiques. ?

We are guessing that he means modern replications of old-style muzzle-loaders, not i*-l****s. Judging by the tone and content of his comments, it would surprise me greatly if he had ever heard of the type of muzzleloader that we don't talk about here.

 

[Rat]

How's that for muzzle flash? .62" Flintlock Jeager.

 

[SamTex1949]

Hello,

I am searching for some information from the experts out there in the appearance of modern muzzle loaders and flint lock muzzle loaders for use in film and TV. I plan to be shooting video for visual effects assets soon and my team is wanting to capture the look of weapons from the 17th century.

Interesting and curious, Are just attempting to gather these "effects" as stock footage (you ref both movie and TV) or is this for something more specific coming up ? For ways to NOT do this take some time and watch "The Men Who Built America: Frontiersmen" where in many scenes it can be seen how the discharge of MLs (flintlock) were CG'd in. Maybe for the common viewers this would of been totally unobserved but to anyone who has fired these type firearms over any period of time it became near comical in seeing the "fake" flash and smoke coming from lock and muzzle.

 

[Boatncamp]

Please, if you are trying to be accurate, do some more research. You state that you are looking to document 17th century, but that is a long period of time with many changes that occurred in firearms. I am not sure what you are doing that you are only looking to replicate the muzzle flash. Shows such as The Men that Made America and others frequently show very wrong period guns! Some people may not notice but many do. Today there is no excuse for such laziness.
If you are only showing the muzzle flash, will it be from the front or the side? Firearms then were muskets and as previously stated the barrels should be round and smooth NOT octagonal and rifled. in both cases the flash in the pan should be visible, more so if seen from side. If from the front, depending on your cropping and depth of field, it would still be seen.
If you are in need of people to help out with providing period correct or near period correct pieces, you may want to consult the regional pages on this form and look for people in your direct area who are active shooters and or clubs.
There are other forums to consult also.
Also, while I am not sure of their fees, there are many companies that provide period correct pieces from matchlocks to Civil War era. One of the larger ones is Loyalist Arms in Canada. There are others here in the United States.
Please weigh the cost vs accuracy carefully as leaning to the cost side and ruin the credibility of your of your production.

Woody