I am a student in an antiques class. Since I have some knowledge of antique guns my instructor has given me a final project of obtaining as much information on the following Moll percussion rifle as I can get. Description - 42 inches long, full tiger maple stock, 12 1/2 inches from butt plate to set triggers, octogon 27 1/2 inch barrel, front blade sight brass, rear sight iron, stamped MOLL in block letters 4 inches from tang, letters 1/8 inch high totoal 9/16 inch long, plain brass patch box 5 1/2 inches long, lock 4 3/8 inches long some engraving, weight 5 1/2. pounds, 32 cal.
Moll percussion rifle
- Thread starter arborgrow
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arbor, it sounds like an interesting piece. I would like to see some digital images of this rifle if possible. That would also help us help you with any information we may have concerning this rifle.
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John Moll. look in Kauffmans the golden age of the Kenucky rfle, Good luck
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Try a search and you will come up with sites such as this.
[url] http://www.firelocks.com/page6.html http://www.firelocks.com/page46.html[/url]
[url] http://www.firelocks.com/page6.html http://www.firelocks.com/page46.html[/url]
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There are no less than 16 Moll's listed as gunmakers, in Whiskers "Armsmakers of Pennsylvania" So much more info is needed.
1. First name of Moll, and Jr., Sr., II,III
2. Date of birth, or death.
3. County of residence
4. Was the gun origonaly a percussion or was it a conversion from flint.
5. was the barrel shortened, or because of the length of pull (12 1/2") was it a youth/ladies gun
6. pictures would help greatly.
The percussion lock ignition was invented around 1808, but didn't become popular until after about1825, so if it's not a conversion, it would limit which Moll it was, and the 16 I mentioned are Pa. gunmakers, there were other Moll's in other states. Bill
1. First name of Moll, and Jr., Sr., II,III
2. Date of birth, or death.
3. County of residence
4. Was the gun origonaly a percussion or was it a conversion from flint.
5. was the barrel shortened, or because of the length of pull (12 1/2") was it a youth/ladies gun
6. pictures would help greatly.
The percussion lock ignition was invented around 1808, but didn't become popular until after about1825, so if it's not a conversion, it would limit which Moll it was, and the 16 I mentioned are Pa. gunmakers, there were other Moll's in other states. Bill
Welcome to the Forum! 
As was mentioned, there were a lot of Moll's building guns and the time span covers a number of years.
Hopefully you can post some pictures of the gun here. If you have digital images of it, posting is fairly easy.
If you can't post pictures of it, could you answer a few questions about it? Some of these questions will not be answered by the pictures.
The shape of the butt plate. Is it wide and flat, moderatly curved or very curved?
What is the height and width of it?
Does the gun have two triggers (set triggers) or a single trigger?
Is the top (comb) of the stock straight, gently curved or very curved?
Does the lock have any markings on it?
Does the stock have a clearance cut in it to clear the hammer?
Do the metal parts (like the butt plate) stand proud of the adjacent wood, like the wood has shrunk?
Is the surface of the barrel around the nipple severly pitted?
I'm sure we will have more questions than answers so anything you can add will help.
Zonie
As was mentioned, there were a lot of Moll's building guns and the time span covers a number of years.
Hopefully you can post some pictures of the gun here. If you have digital images of it, posting is fairly easy.
If you can't post pictures of it, could you answer a few questions about it? Some of these questions will not be answered by the pictures.
The shape of the butt plate. Is it wide and flat, moderatly curved or very curved?
What is the height and width of it?
Does the gun have two triggers (set triggers) or a single trigger?
Is the top (comb) of the stock straight, gently curved or very curved?
Does the lock have any markings on it?
Does the stock have a clearance cut in it to clear the hammer?
Do the metal parts (like the butt plate) stand proud of the adjacent wood, like the wood has shrunk?
Is the surface of the barrel around the nipple severly pitted?
I'm sure we will have more questions than answers so anything you can add will help.
Zonie
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No sir, so I sent ya a PM.
Guest
Arbor sent me some scans, but the only one I could save to photobucket was this one, but I'll try and describe what I can of the others. It's still kinda slim info. Here's the one pic.
From this view it appears crudely made, but not a conversion gun, and has always been a percussion. Crudely forged trigger guard, scrapped curley maple stock. Doubleset triggers. Definately not one of the early John Moll's. The picture of the lock side shows what appears to be an undersize (for the mortice) lock of 1840's vintage. Barrel has a drum. There are pictures of the barrel, and sites, which are common low profile iron rear, and brass front. Pictures, are grainy scans, and any detail is fuzzy. There are no full stock pic's to give us any good profile, and without that guess'es at best would only be that it was american 1840's to 1870's East of the Mississippi. If there is a full profile pic, email me, and I'll try posting it for you. To post pic's here you first need to put them into a host like[url] www.photobucket.com[/url] , it's a free service. Then they can be posted from there. Minor inconvienience but it saves bandwidth on this server. Bill
From this view it appears crudely made, but not a conversion gun, and has always been a percussion. Crudely forged trigger guard, scrapped curley maple stock. Doubleset triggers. Definately not one of the early John Moll's. The picture of the lock side shows what appears to be an undersize (for the mortice) lock of 1840's vintage. Barrel has a drum. There are pictures of the barrel, and sites, which are common low profile iron rear, and brass front. Pictures, are grainy scans, and any detail is fuzzy. There are no full stock pic's to give us any good profile, and without that guess'es at best would only be that it was american 1840's to 1870's East of the Mississippi. If there is a full profile pic, email me, and I'll try posting it for you. To post pic's here you first need to put them into a host like[url] www.photobucket.com[/url] , it's a free service. Then they can be posted from there. Minor inconvienience but it saves bandwidth on this server. Bill
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Makes me wonder if it's an earlier Moll barrel that has been hacked off and re-stocked by a later gunsmith. One way to tell is to pull the barrel and see if the staples have been moved and/or filled. The style of the stock from the photo is way too late to be the John Moll of Lehigh fame. The triggerguard is a crude replacement of strap iron? Still, a neat thing. More pictures of the buttstock from both sides would be a great help.
Don
Don
Guest
As a former museum curator and present teacher I must say that there needs to be more real effort shown in this provinience search.
Scans are never acceptable. They are used to cover flaws and blur details.
Digital images are necessary and there need to be plenty of them from every angle with every detail shown.
Any "student of antiques" is aware of this in the 21st century.
second; no teacher of any accredited university is going to accept "forum advice" as documentation. Most of the time they will not accept the opinions of known appraisers without collaberating evidence.
No mention of lock markings, shape, proof marks. Just Moll stamped in "block letters".
Come on "antiques student", if you "have some knowledge" and want a decient grade in my class you would have to do much better than this!!
$ound$ like a fi$hing expidition.
Scans are never acceptable. They are used to cover flaws and blur details.
Digital images are necessary and there need to be plenty of them from every angle with every detail shown.
Any "student of antiques" is aware of this in the 21st century.
second; no teacher of any accredited university is going to accept "forum advice" as documentation. Most of the time they will not accept the opinions of known appraisers without collaberating evidence.
No mention of lock markings, shape, proof marks. Just Moll stamped in "block letters".
Come on "antiques student", if you "have some knowledge" and want a decient grade in my class you would have to do much better than this!!
$ound$ like a fi$hing expidition.
Ghost, I am a retired professor of botany and horticulture. For 35 years I worked with plants. I am taking an introductory class in antiques at a local high school to learn how to research antiques. I have a copy of The Moll Gunsmiths by Heffner and have done as much research as I can through our local library. Through the internet I came across The Muzzleloading Forum and thought I could get more information from people like yourself. My knowledge of antique guns goes back 50 years ago when I started collecting guns as a teen ager with the help of my father, a policeman, in Yonkers. I sold all but one of my antique guns, except an 1864 Reminton 44 army percussion revolver, to go to college. The scaned pictures of the Moll rifle were provided by my instructor and I do not have a digital camera to take more pictures. I an not on a fishing expidition I was just looking for as much information as I can get to complete my report which is due tomorrow. Thanks for your help as well as the others on the Forum.
Arbor
Arbor
Guest
Arbor, Good luck on your report and I hope ya get a "A" on it. Let us know how it worked out for ya. :hatsoff:
I wonder, if a ghost ate some Crow could you see it after he swallowed?
arbor, Sorry we couldn't offer more help but as you did learn here, there are a lot of Molls who made guns over the years.
There is a good chanch that many of them were related although one would have to know which one built your project and then dig up the family tree to be sure.
Good luck with your paper and don't become a stranger here.
Your Remington Pistol sounds like it is a Remington New Model Army Revolver, made from 1863 thru 1875. Neat piece of History!
arbor, Sorry we couldn't offer more help but as you did learn here, there are a lot of Molls who made guns over the years.
There is a good chanch that many of them were related although one would have to know which one built your project and then dig up the family tree to be sure.
Good luck with your paper and don't become a stranger here.
Your Remington Pistol sounds like it is a Remington New Model Army Revolver, made from 1863 thru 1875. Neat piece of History!
My instructor did not give me a grade for my paper as yet. next week grades will be given. he did say that I did an excellent report except for the evaluation part where I was only able to get 3 estimates as to the value which ranged from $300 to $800 and posibly $1200 if the rifle was actually seen and authenticated as a Moll. As for my Reminton, it is a New Model with a T 81295 stamped on the bottom of the frame left side under the grip. is that the serial number?
Again thanks for your help.
Arbor
Again thanks for your help.
Arbor
The number is in the series of the New Model Army although I don't know the significance of the letter.
My limited material on the Remingtons just gives the numeric portion of the number.
If your pistol was issued to the Military (not all of them were), and if the left grip has not been replaced, it should have a inspectors inspection stamp on it below the screw head.
The absence of the inspectors stamp may indicate the gun was sold to a civilian or the grip may have been changed during the last 142 years.
SN 59038, 67389 and 71672 have a the letters "NJ" stamped on the left side of the barrel indicating they were used by the New Jersey Militia.
You may be interested in a post I made about Remingtons. Here is a quick Link to it:
"1858 REMINGTONS"
My limited material on the Remingtons just gives the numeric portion of the number.
If your pistol was issued to the Military (not all of them were), and if the left grip has not been replaced, it should have a inspectors inspection stamp on it below the screw head.
The absence of the inspectors stamp may indicate the gun was sold to a civilian or the grip may have been changed during the last 142 years.
SN 59038, 67389 and 71672 have a the letters "NJ" stamped on the left side of the barrel indicating they were used by the New Jersey Militia.
You may be interested in a post I made about Remingtons. Here is a quick Link to it:
"1858 REMINGTONS"
Based on your previous post my Reminton is a New Model Army. Unfortuneately the grips have been replace so I can not tell if it was army issued. The T is actually about 1/2 inch to the left of the serial number. I purchased the gun from Ed Agremonte's gun shop in Yonkers for $30 in 1949. It is stil the only antique gun that I still own though I have a number of target and hunting guns I on a regular basis. I have a collection of old amunition from teet fire and pinfire cartriges to rim fire and center fire cartriges. would you know of anyone that may be interested?
Again thanks for you info.
arbor
Again thanks for you info.
arbor
This is digressing from muzzleloading, but IMO, shooting a teat cartridge in a gun boarders on sacrilege. They just don't make them like that anymore. :rotf:
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