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ROB BARLOW

32 Cal.
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Would someone explain to me why in a patched ball rifle, other than wieght differences,the hardness of lead matters? Very little deforming done at light powder loads and lead never touches barrel so why does it matter.Enlighten me please
 
Soft lead is much easier to load, at least in a rifled barrel. When you start the ball, it has to conform somewhat to the rifling, as the patch will only compress so much. Then, upon firing it will obdurate more into the rifling as can be seen when inspecting recovered fired balls.
 
Shy Old Man said:
Would someone explain to me why in a patched ball rifle, other than wieght differences,the hardness of lead matters? Very little deforming done at light powder loads and lead never touches barrel so why does it matter.Enlighten me please

Hard lead does not shrink. If you are pouring soft lead balls and you have x sized patch, when you change to hard lead that combo might not work, it could get stuck in the barrel. When I paper patch the hard lead bullets seem to not like a dirty barrel. I can shoot these same bullet poured soft at least 4 times before I need to clean. I was cleaning after every shot with the hard ones. Also my hard ones are very hard to get down the barrel. Ron
 
Pure soft lead deforms very quickly on impact with flesh, much more so than any alloy mix you can shoot. The reason we use pure lead with the PRB is that we are already limited by the powders we use to relatively slow velocities, and because of the poor ballistic's coefficient for all RBs, the velocity drops off very fast outside the muzzle.

You need a soft lead ball to expand on thin skinned game, to increase the size of the primary wound channel, at low velocity, and to shock the vital organs and nervous system to make a clean, quick kill. The pure lead ball does that very well, and is why its such a good " killer" projectile to choose.

Compared to modern bullet technology, and the velocities you can achieve with smokeless powders, the PRB is terrible, " by the numbers.". According to the numbers that last thing you should want to fire at game is a round lead ball.

But, the numbers are designed to define elongated bullets, at velocities well above the speed of sound.

What ultimately matters is the performance of the two projectiles on game, and the soft lead ball will kill game all out of proportion to its weight and kill the animals quickly, inside the normal ranged people can shoot OPEN SIGHTS accurately.

A 177 grain, .50 cal. RB doesn't seem like much of a projectile, but it will kill any whitetail you hit in a vital area, and has done so at distance well beyond 100 yards.

Alloy cast RBS are sometimes used by hunters who want to insure adequate penetration on THICK SKINNED GAME, like Elk, Moose, and Bear. That is a judgment call, where the hunter decides he want to be sure that he puts his Lead Ball deep into the body of the animal he is hunting. To compensate for the lack of expansion he would get using a pure lead ball, he increases the diameter of the bore of the rifle he chooses for hunting this kind of big game. That is why you see the .58 caliber guns show some popularity among experienced hunters who hunt Elk, Moose, and Bear. The larger diameter ball insures a huge primary wound channel, and shooting an alloy lead ball insures that penetration will be very deep on these large animals, even if large bones are struck by the ball.
 
Wow guys thanks for the quick replys!
I understand about hunting with PRB, was refering to more paper punching etc. And then how soft is soft, and how do you measure it? All the reading I have done says to have a little tin in your lead as it will floww and fill the mold better. Can you tell by weight?
 
Shy Old Man said:
Wow guys thanks for the quick replys!
I understand about hunting with PRB, was refering to more paper punching etc. And then how soft is soft, and how do you measure it? All the reading I have done says to have a little tin in your lead as it will floww and fill the mold better. Can you tell by weight?

I have no trouble getting round ball molds to fill with dead soft lead. As for target shooting, the patch actually imprints itself into the ball, gripping it and spinning it down the rifling. If the ball is too hard, the patch doesn't grab as well and lets the ball slip in the patch. This doesn't spin the balls up consistently and accuracy can suffer. Especially when you consider that the alloy ball is harder to load without going to a thinner patch, which has it's own set of problems such as blowout.
 
Even though the ball is wrapped in a patch, the rifling does get engraved into the ball, ever-so-slightly, depending on groove depth and patch thickness. With a harder ball, it makes it more difficult to do.
Hope this helps.
 
I have about 25-30 pounds of plumber lead that my father-in-law found in his garage when he moved and he gave it to me. I hear this is good for PRBs....
 
YOu can buy lead hardness testers for not that much money. Once you know the weight of a given diameter ( Measured with a micrometer, or caliper) ball, after its cast, or swaged, THEN you can use the weight of other balls to get an idea of how close they are to your standard. Pure lead is more dense than alloy lead, so it will weigh more, all other dimensions being equal. Alloy lead will cast to a larger diameter but weigh less!

Alloys usually consist of adding small amount of Tin, and then Antimony to the pure lead. Tin makes the balls lighter, but often makes the balls easier to cast: Antimony makes them more brittle. Both make the lead harder.
 
Go to "charts and links" in the Members Resources of the forum. Find "Pure Lead Roundball Weights." Once you've cast some balls with your lead, weigh the good ones and take an average. Then use a micrometer to find their exact diameter. Find that diameter in the chart and compare. Remember, pure lead will weigh more than an alloy. GW
 
Shy Old Man said:
Would someone explain to me why in a patched ball rifle, other than wieght differences,the hardness of lead matters? Very little deforming done at light powder loads and lead never touches barrel so why does it matter.Enlighten me please

Depends on the rifling form. Wide lands need softer lead or they will start and maybe load hard. Narrow lands may actually work better with harder lead.
My 16 bore rifle with very narrow lands and only .008" deep, will shoot pure lead and wheel weights interchangeably though I use a thicker patch with pure lead in most cases. WW needs a starter even with a thinner patch.
If curious try some harder lead and see how it works.
Dan
 
again thanks for the replys. I have been skimming my leead as I heat it not fluxing to get as much of the antimony out as I can and according to the weight charts I am within 1 gr on 4 different ball sizes. I can mark all with my thumbnail, thus can I think I have soft enought lead? I start with WW. But for pistol balls use only stickon WW with are said to be pure. They do bend a lot easier and take more to break and some of my .457's are acually .005 heavy(must be a little big)
I work at a tire store and get a 5 gal bucket of dirty WW a month.
 
Shy Old Man said:
again thanks for the replys. I have been skimming my leead as I heat it not fluxing to get as much of the antimony out as I can and according to the weight charts I am within 1 gr on 4 different ball sizes. I can mark all with my thumbnail, thus can I think I have soft enought lead? I start with WW. But for pistol balls use only stickon WW with are said to be pure. They do bend a lot easier and take more to break and some of my .457's are acually .005 heavy(must be a little big)
I work at a tire store and get a 5 gal bucket of dirty WW a month.

I can scratch lead with my thumb that is 24BHN. Pure lead is 5 BHN. What I have been told is, you can't get the antimony out by skimming. As I understand it You can't get out tin either but I don't know for sure just what I have read. Ron
 
I understand WW to be 11 to 12BHN, With 8 perfect for BP revolvers. But I may be misunderstanding that also
 
I certainly wouldn't want any harder than 8 for a revolver. I prefer them to be as soft as I can get them, 5 if I can.Hard balls can over stress the loading lever pin.
 
Idaho Ron said:
What I have been told is, you can't get the antimony out by skimming. As I understand it You can't get out tin either but I don't know for sure just what I have read. Ron

You are correct. Tin and antimony can't be removed by the average joe. There is a rather involved process to do it and it is done by the pros. The lead has to be brought to very high temps and then chemicals are added to it to separate the other metals so they can be skimmed off.

When we flux our lead we are helping to remove impurities from the melt but at the same time we are evening the mix of tin and antimony in the lead.

HD
 
Shy Old Man said:
I have been skimming my lead as I heat it not fluxing to get as much of the antimony out as I can
As I understand, once the metals are in suspension it is very difficult to separate them back out. And since you are using wheelweights, that poses another problem....ZINC! Seems there are more and more WWs being made with zinc in them. Once the zinc is in suspension your alloy is pretty much ruined. One way to keep those zinc WWs out of suspension is to melt your WWs at about 700 degrees as zinc melts over about 770 degrees; the good WWs will melt and the zinc ones will remain floating on top of the melt to be scooped out with the steel clips. Some of the zinc ones will be marked Zn but most are not.
 
mazo kid said:
As I understand, once the metals are in suspension it is very difficult to separate them back out. And since you are using wheelweights, that poses another problem....ZINC! Seems there are more and more WWs being made with zinc in them. Once the zinc is in suspension your alloy is pretty much ruined. One way to keep those zinc WWs out of suspension is to melt your WWs at about 700 degrees as zinc melts over about 770 degrees; the good WWs will melt and the zinc ones will remain floating on top of the melt to be scooped out with the steel clips. Some of the zinc ones will be marked Zn but most are not.

I am glad you brought up zinc. A lot of guys are trying to buy WW. I won't buy a bucket of ww because of the zinc. My last bucket I got (for free) were almost half zinc. Stick on WW are the best for what we want. The stick on WW's I have run right at 8 BHN which is a little high for my taste but will work. The clamp on WW's run between 11 and 13 BHN. I don't think that WW's were all made with the same allow mix. Ron
 
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