More powder drum issues

[Antelope Pete]

Well another of many setbacks for my Leman build . I took the barrel to a gunsmith to have dovetails cut for the sights and underlugs and drill and tap the drum hole. The dovetails turned out great but the drum hole is sloppy which is obviously a real safety concern. I called and told them and of course he said they only do quality work. Anyway I told him that I ordered a 3/8" drum to replace this 5/16" and he said bring it by. I asked how long it would take and he said black powder wasn't a high priority. Well I already waited 5 weeks to get the dovetails cut. So because of the sorry attitude I don't really want to go back.
My question is it looks like the existing hole can be reamed using a "Q" reamer and then tapped but I don't have a drill press. Would you trust reaming by hand and then tapping or should I pay or find somebody with a press? I know reamers will better follow an existing hole than a drill bit but just asking. After 315 hours on this so far I'm getting a little gun shy with all the issues I've had.

On another note hopefully I get this resolved and I can proceed. If so how tight does the drum need to be and should there be anything like blue Locktite on it to keep it secure. Never had a drum gun so don't know. Thanks

 

[Phil Coffins]

Why have you chosen a Q reamer? What pitch is the 3/8” drum? The work can be done by hand depending on the set up and your skill level. I always avoid Locktite on a new build, a close fit is plenty strong and affords a perfect seal.

 

[rchas]

If you're concerned about accuracy even a cheap drill press will be better than hand work, and may cost less than a smith/machinist.

Be aware that if you increase the size of the drum, you may have to alter the lock to fit.

 

[Antelope Pete]

Phil.
I forgot to say it's 3/8-24 and a Q is what I found recommended for that. I won't use Loctite then. Thank you.

rchas.
You're right and a neighbor said to come over and we can use his drill press. The drum is still going to be 1/2" it's just the threads are going from 5/16 - 24 to 3/8 -24 . Thank you.

I know the tightness question is subjective and maybe hard to answer but just wondering, pretty snug or pretty tight?

It's really frustrating the attitude traditional gunsmiths have of muzzleloaders at least here in Colorado. They really look down on them as though they are some kind of junky toy.

 

[Pete G]

Pretty snug. Barrel steel isn’t very tough to strip.

 

[Sam squanch]

Just go slow and THINK. Plan your work, then work your plan. Measure twice , drill once. Make sure the drill press table is square with the drill bit. Most ordinary smiths either won’t touch muzzleloaders, or think very stupid things about them. Last gunsmith I went to for a breech plug tap job in a barrel, insisted on a depth of ….. 2 inches for SAFETY! …

 

[Antelope Pete]

Pete G
Thanks that's what I was looking for.

Sam squanch
Thanks. It seems like everything is harder than you think with this. I hope to get to the Kibler phase of this project and do the staining, striping and finish. Wow 2 inches is good for almost 4 plugs. Yeah this gunsmith thing doesn't leave me with a good feeling.

I checked into taps and now I'm thinking about things I didn't even consider like class 2B or 3 B.

 

[ZUG]

There are a few things you need to know before you start drilling and tapping the barrel. Not to get bogged down with class of fit between drum and tapped hole. Most male and female threads are class 2 - A and B (75%). No need for a class 1 or a class 3. As for using Loctite I don't see the harm in using it. Drill the hole using a drill press and clamp the barrel down so it will not move and bugger up the hole or you WILL be in trouble. Drill the hole in stages first use an undersized drill about 0.020" smaller than the final size tap drill called for. Once the undersize hole is drilled then switch to the proper size tap drill and drill the hole. Then without moving anything remove the drill bit and put the tap in the chuck - lube the tap with TAPPING FLUID not any old oil - use real TAPPING FLUID! Rotate the chuck BY HAND while lowering the spindle into the hole continue rotating the chuck BY HAND until you finish tapping the hole. Remove the tap and clean out any chips with a solvent to remove the tapping fluid. Before installing the drum, you will need to chamfer the hole so that the drum will shoulder up to the barrel as the drum threads do not come to the drum's shoulder completely. I think I have covered what needs to be done to get a good fit between the barrel and drum. You might also need to trim the end of the drums end if it sticks out into the barrels bore. Do this BEFORE you put Loctite on the drums threads and install it. P.S. DON'T be "ham fisted" tightening down the drum "GOOD and SNUG" is good enough especially when using the Loctite! OR you will twist off the drum - good luck.

 

[Italian Hawkin]

Pete although you don't know me I would be willing to machine a good Go/NoGo gauged 3/8-16 tapped hole in your barrel. Also I could thread wire the male threads on the 5/16-18 drum. You never know. Maybe the male threads on your drum are undersize and the gunsmiths hole is actually correct. I would avoid doing it by hand. I could have that back to you in two weeks for free.

 

[Antelope Pete]

ZUG,
Thank you that's good advice. I like the hand turn of the drill press chuck technique for tapping sounds safer. Yeah the drum threads don't get to the shoulder, sounds like you have had experience. I was thinking like you said about stepping it more than once but using reamers. It seems that would make a cleaner hole and keep the hole location in the same place better since it needs to match the lock plate as close as possible. Thanks for the ideas they are good ones.

This barrel is actually a replacement for the one that came with the kit. It had several issues that I didn't feel good about. The drum hole ironically was good on that one though. We called Colerain about one issue and they sent me a new barrel for almost half off even though it wasn't their fault. We paid them the full amount.

Italian Hawkin,
Thank you for the offer I really appreciate it. It's not that I don't trust you but I'll try it here and hopefully get it done good. The size is going to be 3/8-24. I have tried 4 different drums and they all fit loose. The minor dia. of a 5/16-24 hole should be .267 - .277 and this one is elongated .283 - .290. A .280 drill goes in without a lot of difficulty.

 

[ZUG]

ZUG,
Thank you that's good advice. I like the hand turn of the drill press chuck technique for tapping sounds safer. Yeah the drum threads don't get to the shoulder, sounds like you have had experience. I was thinking like you said about stepping it more than once but using reamers. It seems that would make a cleaner hole and keep the hole location in the same place better since it needs to match the lock plate as close as possible. Thanks for the ideas they are good ones.

This barrel is actually a replacement for the one that came with the kit. It had several issues that I didn't feel good about. The drum hole ironically was good on that one though. We called Colerain about one issue and they sent me a new barrel for almost half off even though it wasn't their fault. We paid them the full amount.

Italian Hawkin,
Thank you for the offer I really appreciate it. It's not that I don't trust you but I'll try it here and hopefully get it done good. The size is going to be 3/8-24. I have tried 4 different drums and they all fit loose. The minor dia. of a 5/16-24 hole should be .267 - .277 and this one is elongated .283 - .290. A .280 drill goes in without a lot of difficulty.

I'm a mechanical engineer - retired from a well-known aerospace company after 45 years of service - I know what I am talking about .

 

[Antelope Pete]

I'm a mechanical engineer - retired from a well-known aerospace company after 45 years of service - I know what I am talking about .

What a coincidence I also retired from a well know aerospace company after 43 years but as an assembler/mechanic and then as a quality inspector. I had more than a few disagreements with your kind over the years as an inspector when I rejected parts. Happily I'm all done with that now though.

 

[ZUG]

What a coincidence I also retired from a well know aerospace company after 43 years but as an assembler/mechanic and then as a quality inspector. I had more than a few disagreements with your kind over the years as an inspector when I rejected parts. Happily I'm all done with that now though.

I also worked in the Quality Dept - HATED IT - could not wait to get out of there - I lasted less than one year! Its where people who think they know what they are saying and telling others is the best way to "get-er-done"!!! -- No offence to you

 

[LME]

Well another of many setbacks for my Leman build . I took the barrel to a gunsmith to have dovetails cut for the sights and underlugs and drill and tap the drum hole. The dovetails turned out great but the drum hole is sloppy which is obviously a real safety concern. I called and told them and of course he said they only do quality work. Anyway I told him that I ordered a 3/8" drum to replace this 5/16" and he said bring it by. I asked how long it would take and he said black powder wasn't a high priority. Well I already waited 5 weeks to get the dovetails cut. So because of the sorry attitude I don't really want to go back.
My question is it looks like the existing hole can be reamed using a "Q" reamer and then tapped but I don't have a drill press. Would you trust reaming by hand and then tapping or should I pay or find somebody with a press? I know reamers will better follow an existing hole than a drill bit but just asking. After 315 hours on this so far I'm getting a little gun shy with all the issues I've had.

On another note hopefully I get this resolved and I can proceed. If so how tight does the drum need to be and should there be anything like blue Locktite on it to keep it secure. Never had a drum gun so don't know. Thanks

I think you should find someone with a machine shop to help you. From your post I get the feeling this is all new to you. You may not have a problem ? If you comtinue you may get to where there is no fixing it at all?

 

[Colonial Boy]

Has the nipple hole been done yet?
No mention of aligning it with the hammer, and drilling and tapping it with the drum in place involves either hand work or an elaborate setup.
I’ve always finished all basic work on the drum before final assembly to the barrel.

 

[bud in pa]

What kind of drill presses di Colonial gunsmiths have?

 

[Antelope Pete]

ZUG
No offense taken and I know what you mean but I've encountered some ME's that were not all they claimed to be also. Some were really knowledgeable until you wanted them to sign off on a rejection report then they backed off and as long as it was me that took the blame it was all good. The thing about Quality is you're the enemy and it wears on you. Oh well done with that now.

LME
We tried that too most are bid time producers and the others that I've called don't want to deal with gun parts. You're right, getting to the point of no return is what bothers me. Thank you.

Colonial Boy
The nipple hole has not been drilled because there isn't an acceptable drum hole yet. I bought a nipple drilling tool from Track and if I can get the drum hole done acceptably then I can install the drum and drill the nipple hole when I know what the alignment should be. Thank you.

bud in pa
No they didn't have drill presses but they were gunsmiths who trained/apprenticed for a long time and knew what they were doing. Thank you.

I first got this kit 6 months ago and this whole process is getting so frustrating (and more expensive) in this over promise and under deliver society.

 

[ZUG]

Ha, ha, ha - good comment Bud -- but they were smarter and more skilled than we are now .

Antelope Pete - you are spot on with your comment. Not all engineers are knowable on how to be practical. Quality is not for the faint of heart that's for sure!

 

[tallPercshooter]

I think you are making this overly difficult. I bought a barrel with a factory drum that was sloppy. I went to hardware store, bought a larger tap and matching drill bit, and just drilled the old threads out with an electric drill, going slowly. Then tapped to new size. Came out fine. Cost about $12 and I still have the tools.

 

[Antelope Pete]

tallPercshooter, Thank you I sent you a P.M.