Most 'Authentic' Hawken

[sheriff john]

Anything with a coil spring lock and cast engraving isn't even close to reproducing a m/l from the 19th century. Still shooting an Ithaca Hawken from many decades ago. Finished from a kit for me by a dear, departed friend. They were never cheap goods and, at the time the kit was all I could afford. Traded him a .32 Douglas "XX" barrel for his efforts which he, in turn, made into a squirrel killer.

Many old guys traded with each other with a handshake. No internet. No cellphones. Lots of fun doing face-to-face deals. Local gunstores were glad to hold on to something while we made payments or came up with something to trade for part of the price.

 

[sturmkatze]

Anything with a coil spring lock and cast engraving isn't even close to reproducing a m/l from the 19th century. Still shooting an Ithaca Hawken from many decades ago. Finished from a kit for me by a dear, departed friend. They were never cheap goods and, at the time the kit was all I could afford. Traded him a .32 Douglas "XX" barrel for his efforts which he, in turn, made into a squirrel killer.

Many old guys traded with each other with a handshake. No internet. No cellphones. Lots of fun doing face-to-face deals. Local gunstores were glad to hold on to something while we made payments or came up with something to trade for part of the price.

Ha. My gpr has no ugly engraving in the lock, it being made in 1979… I could care less about coil springs… you can’t see that. Everyone has something they like and don’t.

 

[bigted]

I own a Lyman GPR, and it's great.

If you want the closest thing to a REAL Hawken, you need to get a rifle from Don Stith.

Don Stith's Hawken

You'll pay more, but it WILL look like an original Hawken.

Do you have more info on the Don Stiths rifle? Weight n such? 1 1/8th tapered to 1 inch seems like it would be a beast to carry.

Also that 650 dollar price seems a bit light. Is this a kit?

Oops just recognized the date of this. Never mind!!!

 

[[email protected]]

I know this is an old thread. A lot of the rifles mentioned in it are no longer in production.

I think the most authentic Hawken rifle you can get now, without going full custom, would be one assembled from the Hawken Shop kit. Next to that might be the Pedersoli Rocky Mountain Hawken. The Investarms Gemmer has inherited the position once occupied by the Lyman Great Plains Rifle, and it is evidently the same rifle with a new name. It (and the old GPR) superficially resemble Hawken mountain rifles , but they differ from the originals in too many particulars to enumerate. They are not authentic Hawken replicas, but I understand they are straight shooters and solid, reliable performers. They are close enough for a lot of people. Bob Woodfill wrote an article and did a video about modifying the Investarms Gemmer kit to bring the finished rifle closer in appearance to the original Hawkens. He did a very good job on the rifle he built.

Best regards,


Notchy Bob

Not sure but the Hawken shop which is quite close to me in Oak Harbor, WA may only sell kits now.

 

[[email protected]]

I have a Santa Fe Hawken made by Uberti, very near the original and very nice. They are hard to find but sometimes undervalued, I bought mine for quite a lot less than my Lyman GPS [California pawn shop on internet].

I have one, Uberti Santa Fe on the way now, should see it next week maybe. Sold as NIB and it looks it.

 

[Notchy Bob]

Do you have more info on the Don Stiths rifle? Weight n such? 1 1/8th tapered to 1 inch seems like it would be a beast to carry.

Also that 650 dollar price seems a bit light. Is this a kit?

Oops just recognized the date of this. Never mind!!!

Don Stith passed away two years ago this month. I had heard that someone obtained his muzzleloader patterns, parts, and tooling but I don’t remember who it was and had not heard anything about it recently. However, I clicked that link in the post @bigted quoted, to see if Mr. Stith’s website might still be up, and the link goes to an active site, “donstith ( dot) com,” which shows the same muzzleloading parts sets that Mr. Stith used to offer. The same website appears to offer modern unmentionable benchrest stocks and bizarre looking sports jerseys. I’m not sure what to make of it. I did note that this current outfit is based in New Jersey, while Mr. Stith and his business were located in southwest Virginia. It would be great if someone resurrected Mr. Stith’s whole line of parts sets, though. Not only did he have the later-style S. Hawken “Kit Carson” rifle, which seems to be the one everybody copies, but he also had parts sets for pre-1840 J&S Hawken half-stock and fullstocked rifles, a Dimick rifle, and a 1792/1794 “Contract Rifle.” Nobody else has correct parts for these guns.

I would agree that the prices shown are suspiciously low for these parts sets at around $650. I believe this price does not include a lock, and I suspect it may not include the barrel, either. Maybe just the hardware, precarved stock, and blueprint? I don’t know, but this has piqued my interest and I may just call them tomorrow to find out what’s going on.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[BigAl52]

Ill let you guys be the judge. But John Bergmann of Granville Tenn sure builds a nice Hawken IMHO

 

[[email protected]]

That is really nice!

 

[Coinneach]

And this thread is almost 20 years old…

And we're all going to be deceased .......one day !

 

[Coinneach]

Anything with a coil spring lock and cast engraving isn't even close to reproducing a m/l from the 19th century. Still shooting an Ithaca Hawken from many decades ago. Finished from a kit for me by a dear, departed friend. They were never cheap goods and, at the time the kit was all I could afford. Traded him a .32 Douglas "XX" barrel for his efforts which he, in turn, made into a squirrel killer.

Many old guys traded with each other with a handshake. No internet. No cellphones. Lots of fun doing face-to-face deals. Local gunstores were glad to hold on to something while we made payments or came up with something to trade for part of the price.

In the mid 70's my first ML rifle was a TC "Hawken" in .54 cal, but once I experienced the other guys out at the range and rendezvous I knew that the TC wasnt going to remain my preferred choice for long.
But married with 2 small kids I had to research and budget over time before I could upgrade and it was never going to be a hand carved "Rolls Royce" of the ML genre; so I asked for advice from those I knew as well experienced elders in ML. The wisest among them was John Kells (RIP) and Peter H who became good friends and mentored me.
"Watch, Learn; Budget and Wait" was there advice and I've followed now for well over 50 years.
Quality always pays off and a guy will always be contented with a ML worthy of its role in our life.
My advice is to wait and watch what comes up for sale, and know before time what second hand quality ML's cost, its worked for me.

 

[Crew Chief]

View attachment 331880
Ill let you guys be the judge. But John Bergmann of Granville Tenn sure builds a nice Hawken IMHO

I had John Bergmann build me a Hawken rifle 2 years ago. I did not want fancy wood since I hunt with my rifles and most of the period rifles were not fancy. It is a fine rifle and shoots straight. I will be carrying it again this deer season.

 

[Juice Jaws]

I was just curious about who makes Hawken rifles that are closest in look to the original ones. I have a TC Hawken percussion and I'd like to make the move to something as close to what what Jake and Sam Hawken made. I'd also like something somewhat affordable. And since I'm asking the impossibel, one whose barrel is optimized for patched ball, not Maxi-balls and such.

Is this an impossible dream?

Steve

Money makes the impossible dreams come true .

 

[Kicking&Screaming]

View attachment 331880
Ill let you guys be the judge. But John Bergmann of Granville Tenn sure builds a nice Hawken IMHO

He sure does !

 

[RMFnLA]

Anything with a coil spring lock and cast engraving isn't even close to reproducing a m/l from the 19th century.

Yes!!!

 

[OldMaineWoodsman]

George Nelson also makes a nice Hawken type rifle. Not a bad turnaround time either.

 

[Frosty861]

My attempt at a Hawken Shop kit. Very accurate and looks pretty good.

 

[reddogge]

I'd like to see that one. I like the plain maple stocks on them more anyway.

 

[Grenadier1758]

A production gun would be the Uberti Santa Fe Hawken. Those can be a little hard to find, but worth the effort. Yes, Don Stith makes a very fine Hawken.

As noted, Don Stith passed away in 2022. He was still active when I made my original reply. Most of the parts and material went to Bob Browner. A modest effort is being made to resurrect the Don Stith kits, but the process is slow. Bob has a fairly long backlog of rifles on his workbench, and he is not taking many orders.

The Western Arms / Uberti Santa Fe rifle has ended up in the Pedersoli Catalog as the Rocky Mountain Hawken rifle.

The Pedersoli listing for the Missouri Hawken Rifle is perhaps closer to a John Gemmer late plains rifle in 45 caliber for Missouri and Illinois hunters. Gemmer bought the Hawken shop in 1865 and made his own rifles based on Hawken architecture.

Jake and Sam Hawken and John Gemmer made rifles in smaller calibers, 45 and below, for local hunting and target use. These are most often brass mounted half stock rifle with a single barrel wedge. One can almost see the similarity between these shorter, lighter rifles and the Thompson Center Hawken.

I have also seen a Gemmer rifle in 36 caliber that looks very much like a CVA mountain rifle with brass mounts. The brass mounts have acquired a patina dark enough to pass for browned steel.

 

[CuNosecap]

On a whim, about the time this thread was started, I asked Jim Chambers "Who should I seek out if I were to build a Hawken rifle?"
"Don Stith" was his one and only recommendation. I had the opportunity to speak to Don and ordered a parts set in .58 cal. He graciously supplied a beautiful maple stock to go with it. It was a fun build. The rifle shoots great and weighs in at a svelte 10 lbs 12 ozs.

 

[Notchy Bob]

On a whim, about the time this thread was started, I asked Jim Chambers "Who should I seek out if I were to build a Hawken rifle?"
"Don Stith" was his one and only recommendation. I had the opportunity to speak to Don and ordered a parts set in .58 cal. He graciously supplied a beautiful maple stock to go with it. It was a fun build. The rifle shoots great and weighs in at a svelte 10 lbs 12 ozs.

Now, that is a righteous Hawken. The hardware and the lines look “right.” A lot of people now believe a rifle of that weight is too heavy, but if you want an authentic Hawken “Mountain Rifle” as the old-time trappers and plainsmen carried, that heft is what you want. The brothers did build a few with figured wood, and the stock on the rifle pictured is outstanding.

I’ll say you did a good job on that one, @CuNosecap .

Notchy Bob