Muzzle velocity Hawken vs Longrifle

[Dale Lilly]

I have never concerned myself with ballistics, nor with experiments in bullets, patches, powder or lubes. I just load 'em as manufacturers recommend and shoot paper, tin cans or game. I have a lovely Lancaster style, custom built flintlock, only one. I love their looks and history, have read a lot about them and watched others fire them. But ... I am a dedicated percussion guy and have a bunch. My reasoning? I am old enough to have had friends and tutors who grew up with plains rifles. I also grew up in the plains/ mountains of the west. The era of mountain men and western explorers is my fascination. I love all muzzle loaders but use percussion. They work just fine. Polecat

 

[Sonny from Vincennes]

I have heard the last INCH of a barrel determines the accuracy. The highly accurate rifles such as target, sniping, varmint, and long range rifles, the origin of rifling and crown of the barrel must NOT be damaged in any way for good accuracy. The crown savers and bore guides must be used when cleaning the gun. Even the smallest of nicks detectable with magnify glass can effect the accuracy. The modern snipers are careful of repeated chambering of a cartridge due to scouring of the bullet.

 

[SPQR70AD]

it would be hard to clear a room with a 32" barrel

 

[Rifleman1776]

The tighter the slower? Gut feeling tells me a tighter load would build more pressure, hence, more velocity.

Yes, I question his comment also. I believe any difference is imaginary. In my .45 target rifle with a Douglas barrel I have seen same poi at 100 yards with .440, .445 and .457" balls.

 

[longcruise]

I have used a chronograph along with weighed powder charges and careful loading procedure to determine the best velocity. Most of the time the velocity will build up to a point and powder charges after that flatten out and sometimes go down slightly. This is called the laws of diminishing returns. This test works very good but one MUST be careful in the loading procedure to keep the variables at a minimum.
Good luck.

I did a test of the diminishing returns proposition. I did it with a 45 caliber TC 28-in Barrel. I started at 50 grains and went up in 10 grain increments to 120 grains. The velocity increased every step of the way. I think the diminishing returns refers to a point where, while velocity is still increasing, the increments of increase begin to be less even though still increasing .

I would have continued beyond 120 grains but I ran out of powder.

 

[Sonny from Vincennes]

You are right. There is a point where the gain slows, go flat, or slightly goes down. That is what is interesting about testing. You can change calibers or barrel lengths and the results will be different. That is what makes a day at the range interesting.
Good shooting

 

[brotherlloyd]

I have found black powder is best used in longer barrel guns. The other powders will give different results. For me I just enjoy shooting and testing loads. I am too old to hunt anymore and enjoy the private range.
Good luck to everybody.

how old are you?

 

[Sonny from Vincennes]

I am 77 yrs old. The body parts does NOT move like they use to is the problem. At my range, I shoot a little bit and talk a lot with the members. It is good to spend the day at the range and get out of the house.

 

[Johnny Tremain]

Once again, the Davenport formula will show you the Maximum powder your barrel can burn before you spit out unburnt powder. A waste.

I have a chrony because I do long distance shooting with modern and BPC.
I used it on my flintlock twice, once in the summer, where I do most of my shooting and once in the fall, hunting season. The variation was about 20-50fps less in the fall.

Using the Davenport formula, my 42 inch swamped rifle has a max charge of 74.5 grains.
It puts out 2035-85fps. When I reduce my charge to my target load, which is 56.5 grains,
I get 1633-75FPS.

Using the cast balls I make, and a same patches every time.

I use a drop tube for my BPC loads. The 42 inch barrel acts as a drop tube, so I always have a constant pressure.

 

[DementedMindOfJac]

I am 77 yrs old. The body parts does NOT move like they use to is the problem. At my range, I shoot a little bit and talk a lot with the members. It is good to spend the day at the range and get out of the house.

Yeah, I'm a bit younger but I got blowded up in ******* Land, so I don't hunt anymore. Cold locks up my joints. I packed in shooting officially last week until end April, early May.

 

[LME]

I have never concerned myself with ballistics, nor with experiments in bullets, patches, powder or lubes. I just load 'em as manufacturers recommend and shoot paper, tin cans or game. I have a lovely Lancaster style, custom built flintlock, only one. I love their looks and history, have read a lot about them and watched others fire them. But ... I am a dedicated percussion guy and have a bunch. My reasoning? I am old enough to have had friends and tutors who grew up with plains rifles. I also grew up in the plains/ mountains of the west. The era of mountain men and western explorers is my fascination. I love all muzzle loaders but use percussion. They work just fine. Polecat

It is a lot of fun to chase the elusive rabbit even if he is already caught! LOL!
I am one that prefers percussion rifles as well. I got my first one a long time ago and followed the instruction in their pamplet that came with the rifle, the shooting and the cleaning. It shot fine although I did try other loads out of couriosity.but wound up going back to the specified load the pamplet stated was best? 80 grains powder .530 lead ball and a good eye would put that ball exactly where it was meant to go. I never changed the load again. The other day I saw a video by Idaho Lewis he was shooting a .54 T.C. rifle his load was the same as mine. I wont argue with him about loads for accuracy as he is one of the best muzzle loader shooters I have ever seen. I even looked at what Sam Fadala recommended for a .54 caliber rifle it was the same. I figured if it aint broke why try to fix it? I do believe mans courious nature won't allow him to leave well enough alone. LOL!

 

[hanshi]

FWIW, I took a .40 longrifle X 38" X "B" wgt barrel and tested both easy and tight loads for comparison. An easy load with 60 grains of 3F averaged 1845 fps. This was with .015" ticking for the patches. Switching to heavier .018" patches with the same load resulted in an average velocity of 2137 fps, an increase of nearly 300 fps.

This got me started with tight loads; using thicker & thicker patches. I finally standardized on unbleached canvas .024". With just a bit of smoothing of the muzzle crowns I found I could use this load in every rifle & caliber and still load safely with the wood, underbarrel ramrod. Barrel length also made a difference.

 

[leadhoarder]

it would be hard to clear a room with a 32" barrel

A good blade works well. So does a fart.

 

[oldschoolhunter55]

What is weird is that a lot of rifles have two different loads that are the most accurate. One at a heavier charge and one at a light charge.

dang didnt know that.im learning a lot on here

 

[longcruise]

dang didnt know that.im learning a lot on here

Trust,..... but verify.

 

[Mike in FL]

Not true to which part. If your referring to the tightness of load I got data that shows i am correct. If your referring to flint being slower than percussion I got data to support it too. Of course others could have conflicting data as I have learned nothing in ML is exact science.

 

[Mike in FL]

Well said. I was simply referring to the patch/ball and the velocity resulting from their fit in the barrel. Don't you think that a tighter fitting load holds more pressure behind it? Let's say we have a patch and ball combination that no gas escapes around the patch when the gun is fired. Now, load with an even larger ball or tighter patch. Does that not result in more pressure required to move that load out the muzzle? Is an easy loading patch/ball not easier (less pressure) to expel? I'm no engineer, but it seems the higher the pressure, the more velocity. Or, the harder it is to move an object, the more effort is required, and effort equals a more intense reaction, or velocity.

 

[SDSmlf]

Tighter the load the slower it goes.

Interesting observation, though I must admit I have yet to see it myself based on chronograph data, though always looking to learn.

So I guess this means as your load gets progressively tighter until it reaches the point where it doesn’t move and just sits in the bore on top of the residue from burnt powder? How do you load it for that matter? Also curious how you remove such a tight load when a powder charge isn’t capable of sending it out of the bore? Going the other way, how loose of a load do you suggest for maximum velocity? Maybe drop down a caliber size? From my experience you will lose velocity and accuracy as you loosen up your load. Or am I missing something?

 

[Mike in FL]

You done good. Mine didn't turn out that nice, but then I didn't buy the best wood.

 

[longcruise]

Tighter is faster. We all have our own wired in sense of intuition and it is probably very reliable but sometimes intuition surrenders to science.

Another aspect is that heavier is, while not faster, more efficient use of the powder.