Muzzle Velocity question

[Davemuzz]

I'm in the process of building a flintlock pistol for this fall's Pa. flintlock hunting season.

The barrel on my handgun is 12.5" long.

I would prefer shooting (this is a 50 cal, 1-22 twist) hornady Pa. Conicals and I would think\hope with a barrel of this length I could get a muzzle velocity of 1100fps.

But....perhaps I'm being a bit optimistic on that, so I thought I'd post that question here and just ask. "What do you think I can push in FPS with a 240gr. lead conical out of a 12.5" barrel? BP only. I hate that fake stuff. Remember....it's a flinter....no "cheating" by using the always reliable caps! :grin:

Thanks. (Just ribbin youse guyse on the caplock comments!!)

Dave

 

[CoyoteJoe]

I think about 60 grains of 3f would get you there but recoil would be fierce. I have a very large scar on my right palm as a reminder that wood pistol stocks do split under heavy recoil.

 

[TFoley]

Shooting a 154gr [or thereabouts] .45cal ball out of a 44" barrel to get 1100 fps needs about 30gr of FFFg.

To get anything like that velocity that with a 240gr conical you are going to need an almost suicidal load, as has been noted. According to the blurb about these bullets they are designed for a slow twist tube. Your's seems a mite fast to me, but heck, I'm a pesky furriner - what do I know??

A flintlock shooting conicals is new to me, I have to admit.

But don't let my worryin' about you stop you, eh?

Start at 50gr and let us know how you get on.

tac

 

[missionary5155]

Greetings
I shoot a Remington Rolling Block 50 caliber pistol. My bullet is 265 grians . With a 50 grain load of 2F the recoil is enough for me. I do not think it is anywhere close to 1100 FPS.

 

[Davemuzz]

Well.....I shoot a bunch of 44 magnums from my revolvers pretty much all summer long.....because I reload 'em, and because it's just plain fun.

I don't know if "fierce" is anything like the recoil of a max-load of a 200gr. or 240gr. bullet from a 44 mag 6" revolver or not. But....that's a pretty fierce load. 'Course....one could always step up to the 454 Casull if you really enjoy punishment. But I just like to shoot, and the 44 mag isn't punishment.

So....can anyone compare it the the 44 mag?

Again, much thanks.

Dave

 

[CoyoteJoe]

The grip of the .44 mag is very unlikely to split in your hand. ML pistols have cross-grain in the grip area and they split very easily from being dropped, while rested on a table to ram a tight load or from heavy recoil.

 

[Dphar]

Well.....I shoot a bunch of 44 magnums from my revolvers pretty much all summer long.....because I reload 'em, and because it's just plain fun.

I don't know if "fierce" is anything like the recoil of a max-load of a 200gr. or 240gr. bullet from a 44 mag 6" revolver or not. But....that's a pretty fierce load. 'Course....one could always step up to the 454 Casull if you really enjoy punishment. But I just like to shoot, and the 44 mag isn't punishment.

So....can anyone compare it the the 44 mag?

Again, much thanks.

Dave

My question would be why bother with a conical?
The 50 RB will kill any deer or even an elk with that barrel length. They are not bullet resistant after all. I would rather have a slower twist though. 48 or even 66 will work fine though may need more powder to shoot well.
I would recommend you carry it muzzle up when loaded with conicals.

Dan

 

[Handy]

Doing some quick Napkin figuring you should get "near" 1143 FPS using about 64 grains of FFF Goex BP with the intended setup. A wild Horses Butts guess says you're set-up would be like shooting a hot loaded round of .45 ACP with a 230 Grain bullet through a single shot pistol :grin:

The .44 Magnum comparison:
It really depends on the total Mass of the loaded gun ready to fire on what felt recoil and actual recoil will be Plus this does not include burn rates of different powders and other interior/Exterior Ballistics...

However having said the above and reading your past experience with heavy loadings of .44 Magnum Calibers a person could take the reasonable educated guess and say no problem" 'you can handle it...as to the wood grips splitting" 'that should not be a problem at all with correct wood selection and stock/grip design.

I do however agree with the statement made by another poster about using the .50Cal round ball and maybe adding a few inches of barrel length for extra mass of the gun with respect to the BP charge, lubed patch and projectile to lower felt recoil then sprinkle with a thoughtful twist rate along with proper lands and grooves for such design and you should be pushing a 182 grain round ball over 1400-1500FPS with in my opinion a very reasonable 60 grains of FFFG for one extremely efficient hunting pistol(for a BP gun)plus the longer barrel length would provide a better sight radius than the 12.5".

Also as stated by the same other poster: Deer are easy to kill. Deer are thin skinned animals and when talking about Whitetails even the big ones maybe have about a 13 inch wide cross section of Heart/Lung area to penetrate which again is very easy to do.

Sorry to sound like a "know it all jerk" type person, after reading this post I wanted to delete it because I make it sound like their is only one right way to accomplish a goal...I think your idea is great and whats more important you already have a Barrel made!!! How cool it would be to take a Black Bear from behind a tree on the Forrest floor with a Flinter pistol.

Mike S.

 

[Darkgael]

About the PA conical:

According to the blurb about these bullets they are designed for a slow twist tube.

Pay attention to that. I have a box of them. I tried to load one into a caplock carbine with a 1-48 twist. It was amazingly difficult to get one down a fouled barrel. I only tried once. Way too much work.
Pete

 

[Billnpatti]

Using the Davenport equation, your barrel should shoot approximately 30 grains efficiently. This means that anything over 30 grains will be wasting powder, which will not have enough time to burn, and will be blown out the muzzle. The weakness in the Davenport equation is that it doesn't take into account the different burning rates of various granulations and brands of powder. Still, it is a decent approximation of the maximum efficient load for a given caliber and barrel length.

Lyman's "Black Powder Handbook & Loading Manual" gives pistol data for only 8 inch barrels. They show a MV for 30 grains of fffG Goex and a 245 grain Buffalo Bullet of 875 fps. Going to ffG Goex drops the MV to 771 fps. The same amount of Pyrodex RS will give you 738 fps. Almost exactly like a .45 acp in knock down power for all of these loads. If you use a 177 gr. prb, you will gain about 12 to 15% increase in velocity. This translates to about 90 to 95 % of the muzzle energy of using a conical. Given the difference in price between conicals (plastic sabotted modern pistol bullets- YUCK!!! :barf: :barf: :barf: ) and prb's, I'd go with the prb's every time. Besides, a fine pistol like you are contemplating building disserves a proper diet of prb's. They will kill anything you are likely to want to hunt using a muzzleloading pistol. But this is just an old fart's opinion. It's free and probably over priced at that. :haha:

 

[nkbj]

I think it's gonna be a toss up between the prb's and a conical.
The prb gets going a little faster than any conical with the same powder charge. And, the rate of displacement is what matters. In other words, more speed means more better.
So looking at conicals, more lead means you can burn more powder, get more bone breaking penetrating power. The speed is going to get close to what is available with prb.
My suggestions...
If you can get decent accuracy with really hot loaded prb that might be the way to go. If so test the penetration.
If the prb isn't just the perfect cats meow, try some conicals, lighter weight conicals. You need speed. And, heavier the conical is in a pistol the harder it's gonna be to conquer the vertical stringing.

 

[Darkgael]

Dave: If it were my choice, I'd try the Lee REAL bullet before I'd do the Hornady PAs. It was so hard to pound that PA conical down the carbine's 1-48 barrel that I was unsure whether or not I had it properly seated. I tied it to a tree and fired it with a long string - there was no way a puller would take it out and CO2 didn't work. Gun survived with no damage.
The Lee slugs are more forgiving.
Pete

 

[CoyoteJoe]

as to the wood grips splitting" 'that should not be a problem at all with correct wood selection and stock/grip design.
Mike S.

I've had this scar across my palm since a pistol stock split in my hand in 1970, that's why I worry about it. Cracked stocks are by far the most common problem reported with the Lyman Plains Pistol and I've seen many Kentucky types with cracked stocks in the grip area. In MY hand I don't trust heavy recoiling loads from a wood stocked pistol.

 

[Davemuzz]

:bow: I want to thank you guys for your responses. All very helpful and I will keep 'em all in mind when I get this project to the shootin stage.

Right now I hunt with a T\C Hawken stock\lock with a Green Mt. 1-70 twist barrel. The first few years I shot PRB with it, but the last three years I've been shootin the Hornady Pa. Conical with a bore button in between. I've found it very easy to load, even with a fouled bore and the accuracy with the Conical is just as outstanding or maybe even "more outstanding" than with a PRB.

I've killed a lot of deer with the T\C-GM, and I just would like to "up" the challenge a bit using a pistol.

I'll be a bit surprised if I have a tough time getting the Conical down the pistol barrel....but then again, it's going to depend on the bore size. At least with a PRB I can fool with ball size and patch size to get a good fit.

I've put down many whitetail's with a PRB, but I like the delivered energy of the heaver Conical. However, the posted numbers (above) of the PRB are impressive, so if the PRB is the best of the bunch, I'm not going to be disappointed.

I been giving some thought to the "cracked handgrip" possibility. My only thinking on this would be to inlay a piece of blackened metal (I'm not going to have any brass on this pistol....only blackened furniture) from just below the tang, and run it around to the bottom of the "fat" part of my grip hand.

At least, should the grip break, my hand will or should receive a minimal amount of "damage." Plus, I've seen a few pistols with this type of inlayed metal work done, and if done properly it does look quite nice.

I just need to take care during the inlay process and not start a crack that will allow a hard recoil to finish sometime in the future.

Again, I thank you for your post and thoughts.

Dave

 

[Davemuzz]

How cool it would be to take a Black Bear from behind a tree on the Forrest floor with a Flinter pistol.

Mike S.

Yeah Mike.....Cool would be an understatement!!!

Dave

 

[bingo1952]

I shoot a Lyman Plains Pistol in .54 with a .533 RB patched with .018 material and 45 grains of 3F powder. The recoil while not painfull is about all I want to shoot. I would compare felt recoil on this to a .41 magnum revolver. At a reasonable range of 40 yards or less the average black bear would drop like a sack of rocks but if I were going to hunt I would prefer a brace of these pistols for a back-up shot just in case.

 

[Darkgael]

Dave: The problem getting the PA conical down the bore had more to do with the rifling than the diameter per se (though, of course, they play together).
I'm not surprised that you have had not trouble seating a PA conical in a 1-70 twist barrel. They are designed for slow twists. ("Recommended for rifles with 1 in 66" twist.")
I had a problem with a 1-48. Your pistol barrel is 1-22.
I hope that it works for you. You'll let us know, of course.
Pete

 

[Handy]

Dave and all,

Bears are fun...this picture Tree Stand hunting for Deer a few years back(didn't have a Bear tag)

This Blacky "silently Stalked" to the tree and in a fast couple seconds "silently" climbed the tree" 'Finding this amusing the camera came out and snapped this picture just after he was done chewing on the chain of the tree stand.

The above situation quickly became more than just amusing when this aggressive Blacky reached up with his Paw and tried to pull down the Tree Stand!!! If you look close to the lower right hand portion of the Picture you can see the arrow/broadhead which I used to poke at Blackies paw causing him to retreat temporarily.

This Black Bear then made a second try at pulling down the tree stand with me in it. This time I actually poked him in the soft tissue around the mouth" 'in a split second Blacky was down the tree and long gone. In haste to get rid of this Black Bear I accidentally dropped the camera being lucky to retrieve this one picture...

 

[Handy]

Coyote" 'that wound looks NASTY. More than just your average splinter OUCH!!!
Mike S.

 

[arcticap]

Since shooting stout loads is being contemplated, maybe the stock can be designed to be able to hold some extra added weight in places to help with the recoil and muzzle rise. If the stock has enough meat then various shapes of lead or steel weights can be embedded within the wood which could be removable or interchangable to adjust the balance of the pistol to suit personal preference for the different loads that get developed. A lot of target pistols in far smaller calibers than a .50 flinter have removable weights, so maybe that's an idea worth considering in advance of building the stock.