Muzzleloader nipple question.

[Ceddie]

So I've been experiencing misfires with my sidelocks. I suspect I'm not getting clean ignition from the cap to the powder.
I'm using traditions nipples, pyrodex P powder and CCI m #11 caps.
I can get it to pop on 2-3 trys or I can unscrew the cone and shoot a couple g of 4f under the nipple and it fires every time.

Is there a commercially made nipple with larger touch hole?

 

[SDSmlf]

Is there a commercially made nipple with larger touch hole?

A larger touchhole in a nipple will cause issues, call them unintended consequences, and in my opinion not a good option.

Couple of simple things to consider, though some will argue. Pyrodex initially had ignition problems way back when, and led to the Hotshot nipple design (Pyrodox has a significantly higher ignition temperature than blackpowder) and the creation of the ‘magnum’ percussion caps. From your ‘CCI m #11 caps’ I am guessing you are using magnum cap, so that leaves the Hotshot nipple as another incremental improvement if not already in use. That said, I would personally start with making sure that the fire channel between the cap and the powder charge are crud and oil free. Plenty of ideas and threads on how to do this.

By chance, are you using oil as a rust preventative in your gun’s bore? Oil residue will kill most any powder charge, and when combined with the heat from your powder charge upon ignition will form a tar like substance not conducive to consistent and instantaneous ignition. You could also try blackpowder, but you might as well run through correcting the typical standard issues with Pyrodex first, because that is what you have, and many use it without issue.

 

[Trev]

I'm not sure bigger is better in that use, the nipples I like best have smaller holes (~0.28") than the ones I took off. I'd rather guess there's something else going on, is the fire channel clean all the way through?
I will say that when I used Pyrodex in the late '90s that misfires were standard for me, when I changed nothing but switching to black powder that was cured.

 

[Ceddie]

A larger touchhole in a nipple will cause issues, call them unintended consequences, and in my opinion not a good option.

Couple of simple things to consider, though some will argue. Pyrodex initially had ignition problems way back when, and led to the Hotshot nipple design (Pyrodox has a significantly higher ignition temperature than blackpowder) and the creation of the ‘magnum’ percussion caps. From your ‘CCI m #11 caps’ I am guessing you are using magnum cap, so that leaves the Hotshot nipple as another incremental improvement if not already in use. That said, I would personally start with making sure that the fire channel between the cap and the powder charge are crud and oil free. Plenty of ideas and threads on how to do this.

By chance, are you using oil as a rust preventative in your gun’s bore? Oil residue will kill most any powder charge, and when combined with the heat from your powder charge upon ignition will form a tar like substance not conducive to consistent and instantaneous ignition. You could also try blackpowder, but you might as well run through correcting the typical standard issues with Pyrodex first, because that is what you have, and many use it without issue.

I'm using a lanolin solution as my protective lube. No synthetic or petroleum oils.

 

[Ceddie]

Curiously enough, the pistol that was giving me grief today was a traditions kit gun that I built up last week, it was the first time at the range..the Philadelphia derringer that was a rehab project had zero issues with the same stuff.

 

[SDSmlf]

I'm using a lanolin solution as my protective lube. No synthetic or petroleum oils.

Personally have fouled powder charges in the past with lanolin. Why not just use something that drys to a film? Think Eezox or Barricade for example. Or if you insist on using oil, petroleum based or non-petroleum based, as either will foul the breech if used in excess, maybe liberal flushing and swabbing with a solvent like 91% isopropyl alcohol the night before you plan to go shooting or hunting? And be sure and store your gun muzzle down so anything in the bore doesn’t accumulate in the breech area.

Remember, any lubricants, be they ‘all natural’ or petroleum based accumulating in the breech area of your gun’s bore will create challenges. Add in the higher ignition temperature of Pyrodex compared to blackpowder and the potential of problems are greatly increased, at least in my experience.

 

[Ceddie]

Personally have fouled powder charges in the past with lanolin. Why not just use something that drys to a film? Think Eezox or Barricade for example. Or if you insist on using oil, petroleum based or non-petroleum based, as either will foul the breech if used in excess, maybe liberal flushing and swabbing with a solvent like 91% isopropyl alcohol the night before you plan to go shooting or hunting? And be sure and store your gun muzzle down so anything in the bore doesn’t accumulate in the breech area.

Remember, any lubricants, be they ‘all natural’ or petroleum based accumulating in the breech area of your gun’s bore will create challenges. Add in the higher ignition temperature of Pyrodex compared to blackpowder and the potential of problems are greatly increased, at least in my experience.

Thanks for the insights I'll try the alcohol swab and see if that resolves the issue..
I know with my other hobby guns, the lanolin is amazing

 

[SDSmlf]

Thanks for the insights I'll try the alcohol swab and see if that resolves the issue..
I know with my other hobby guns, the lanolin is amazing

Well if it’s not the lanolin as a rust preventative, your cleaning methods, the nipple design or the substitute powder, what do you think could be causing your ignition problems? Should be a pretty short list to work though.

A good technique is to change things one at time until you can achieve nearly 100% ignition.

I honestly can’t recall the last unexpected fail to fire I had with a muzzleloader, but the frequency is significantly less than the number failures I get when shooting 22RF. Had 4 in a 60 round match just last week…..

 

[Ceddie]

Well if it’s not the lanolin as a rust preventative, your cleaning methods, the nipple design or the substitute powder, what do you think could be causing your ignition problems? Should be a pretty short list to work though.

A good technique is to change things one at time until you can achieve nearly 100% ignition.

I honestly can’t recall the last unexpected fail to fire I had with a muzzleloader, but the frequency is significantly less than the number failures I get when shooting 22RF. Had 4 in a 60 round match just last week…..

I'm willing to believe that the lanolin the issue. My other applications are more modern in nature..

 

[Trev]

I don't think it would matter greatly what oil was used as a rust preventive, so long as it is all removed prior to shooting, I like to get a clean dry patch back prior to loading the first time, regardless if I used lard or gun oil when I put the gun away last. Given the problem you're having, I'd also pull that nipple and clean it inside and out with the alcohol. I once got a bit of anti-sieze on the face of the nipple as I was reinstalling it and inadvertently caused myself some firing problems.

 

[morehops52]

I would give the barrel a good patch-scrubbing with HOT water & Dawn although I generally would use warm water. If you have a .22 bristle jag (not crimped) that will fit your rod then use that to get into the smaller patent breech. Any built up crud should be taken care of.

 

[SDSmlf]

I'm willing to believe that the lanolin the issue. My other applications are more modern in nature..

Anything wet, sticky or greasy left in a muzzleloader breech and bore before loading powder is a potential problem in my opinion.

As far as your modern applications, just how much lanolin do you put in the brass case before loading the powder in it? I would imagine lanolin in a primer and between the primer and powder doesn’t enhance the performance, but I’ve never considered trying it. Please briefly explain how lanolin is used in a modern cartridge (not talking about bullet lube, an entirely different topic) doesn’t cause issues. Remember, the bore and particularly the breech area holds the powder and projectile, essentially the same as a modern cartridge, just not in a neat removable package.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Perhaps the nipple has mushroomed so that the caps are not seating on the cone taking two to three hammer falls to seat the cap on the cone. But I also think that there may be something impeding the flow of heat from the cap firing to the powder charge.

 

[dave951]

Perhaps the nipple has mushroomed so that the caps are not seating on the cone taking two to three hammer falls to seat the cap on the cone. But I also think that there may be something impeding the flow of heat from the cap firing to the powder charge.

This is absolutely a possible cause as we've seen it with the "Spanish" caps on muskets. In that case, the caps are made from guilded steel and they would absorb just enough of the hammer blow to cause a misfire. A second hit would nearly always go off.

You have to remember here that the nipple is NOT a long term item. It's like tires on a car. It can and does wear to the point of causing misfires.

 

[Ed C.]

Rather than try to pick one issue you may have I'll suggest a procedure has never ever given me a main charge misfire. Before I leave the house, with the muzzle pointed slightly up I inject some denatured alcohol into the breech via the nipple. Let it sit a bit, tilt the muzzle down, swab the barrel and then blow it out with compressed air. Good to go. After shooting I'll clean with dawn/water. I have a small scraper and brush ( .32 or .38 cal.) for the breech channel and every time I remove the nipple, clean it and clean the drum with a pipe cleaner. Assemble it and with muzzle up put some barricade or ballistol in the breech area. Swab the barrel with the same and store muzzle down. Maybe sounds like overkill, but does not take that much time and results in no rust and no problems. If you still have problems after doing this then you need to look for something mechanical, possibly nipple threads being too long partially blocking the channel.

 

[#BPBReloadingFFL]

What Ed C says!!

 

[OldNo7]

This image is of a T/C sidelock, but it might be applicable to your guns. Kudos' go to Idaholewis for this image of his cut-down TC breech which he'd posted back in 2019, as it clearly shows the patent breech and the angled flash channel.

I'd had similar issues as you are having and suspected there was a sharp burr in that flash channel of mine. In the linked posting (below), you'll see how I carefully polished the flash channel to improve ignition. And after that, I always "slapped the side of the stock" 2X after charging with powder to force the powder into that channel. The linked posting also shows the brushes I'd use to clean the less-than-bore diameter patent breech at the bottom of the bore. And as noted -- I got 100% ignition after doing those things.

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...he-flash-channel-of-tcs-patent-breech.174352/

Good luck -- I hope this helps.

Old No7

 

[Ceddie]

This image is of a T/C sidelock, but it might be applicable to your guns. Kudos' go to Idaholewis for this image of his cut-down TC breech which he'd posted back in 2019, as it clearly shows the patent breech and the angled flash channel.

I'd had similar issues as you are having and suspected there was a sharp burr in that flash channel of mine. In the linked posting (below), you'll see how I carefully polished the flash channel to improve ignition. And after that, I always "slapped the side of the stock" 2X after charging with powder to force the powder into that channel. The linked posting also shows the brushes I'd use to clean the less-than-bore diameter patent breech at the bottom of the bore. And as noted -- I got 100% ignition after doing those things.

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...he-flash-channel-of-tcs-patent-breech.174352/

Good luck -- I hope this helps.

Old No7

That's insane!
Thank you for the link and the detailed description of the process!

 

[Ceddie]

Update: I thoroughly stripped and cleaned the pistol, and reassembled it without the lanolin.
Result:40 rounds without a misfire.
Lesson: lanolin stays out of the action.

Thanks for the lively and informative discussion!

 

[Frontier's]

So I've been experiencing misfires with my sidelocks. I suspect I'm not getting clean ignition from the cap to the powder.
I'm using traditions nipples, pyrodex P powder and CCI m #11 caps.
I can get it to pop on 2-3 trys or I can unscrew the cone and shoot a couple g of 4f under the nipple and it fires every time.

Is there a commercially made nipple with larger touch hole?

Look for a msm spitfire or a knight redhot #11 nipple.