Muzzleloading and development of the Cartridge rifle.

[powderhombre]

Since this is a discussion and not so much a specific question board I thought I would explore the relationship of the Muzzle loader to it's first cousin the Black Powder Cartridge Rifle. We as ML enthusiasts have been told that our guns are usually only accurate to 100 yards or so. When I heard of guys shooting their 45-70s and 50 -90s with BP out to 600 yards and beyond it intrigued me. I started to ask how is it possible with very similar guns, projectiles and propellant could this be so? Not many people I spoke to could give a good answer. The answers I came up with are: Bullet weight. BPCR shooters shoot much heavier (400-600 grain) bullets. Barrel twist. BPCR 1:18 as opposed to 1:48, 1:66 , Sights. The most important is Breech seating a bullet allows for larger than bore bullets. MZ bullets are bore or under bore sized. The exception to this is many BPCR shooters have great success with under bore sized bullets as well. Anyone have thought to add?

 

[Boomerang]

Its mostly about ballistic coefficient. A round ball looses velocity really fast. A faster twist is required to stabilize a longer bullet.

 

[Carbon 6]

Anyone have thought to add?

Yep! Suggested reading:
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/forum-rules.108881/
Suggested viewing:

 

[Shooter1]

Yep, longer heavier bullet, once moving, fly farther..Watched 1000 yard match at Ben Avery,AZ with bp rifles...Those guys shoot way better than I ever did. And I shot well in years past....

 

[Tom A Hawk]

These may be of interest.

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/index.php/marksmanship/lrml/muzzle-loading-match-rifle-in-gb
http://www.lrml.org/reference/matchriflehistory/

 

[52Bore]

Lookup Long Range Muzzleloading at Oak Ridge Tennessee or the NMLRA Creedmoor 150.
Our American 45-70 (1866) is derived from the same as the Whitworth period (not exact in every form), which was patented in1857. 500gr bullet over 2.5drams (68gr) of black. 45-70 also had a 405gr bullet as well.
The Brits during their Volunteer movement were years ahead of the young USA, understandably. Their 1000yd matches open the door for the NRA (GB) in 1959, our NRA was formed in 1871, a few years prior to Creedmoor of 1874 in NY.

 

[Zonie]

As Carbon 6 was pointing out, rule #1 says:

1: The focus of this site is "Traditional Muzzleloading"; The history of muzzleloading weapons and battles, up to and including the American Civil War. (From the inception of firearms through 1865)

For those who don't understand the implications of this, we do not discuss cartridge rifles or the cartridges they shoot.

As long as the posts in this thread are about muzzleloaders, I'll let this run for a while. If it gets into talking about cartridges or the rifles that shoot them, I'll close it or remove it.

 

[powderhombre]

Moderator, I get your point. I was only using the BP cartridge rifle to open the door to a broader subject regarding the traditional ML. I was hoping this tread would lead the conversation down the road of bullet coefficient, sectional densities and long range shooting of the traditional muzzle loader which I find that this site lacks information on. I was using the BPCR as something to compare the trad, muzzle gun to, to get the conversation started. Which by the way the other members are responding to in the way that I hoped.

 

[powderhombre]

One reason I am interested in this conversation is trying figure how efficient the traditional muzzle loader is as a relatively longer range hunting gun. Is it suitable for 150 to two hundred yards on deer and antelope? What calibers work best for those ranges. Can the Trad. ML. deliver enough energy? What bullets have the best trajectories? It can be a complicated can of worms.

 

[52Bore]

I have not ever recovered a 45cal 500gr bullet over 85gr +/- of black powder from ML - they go thru, even with a HP the exit hole is just bigger. My farthest is 300yds and have friends who’ve done it past 400 - whitetails with scopes with same load.
Years ago with an original with apperatur sights I went lengthwise thru a buck at 179yds. Open field, great silhouette thru the sights.
Velocity is around 1300fps
BC 0.38
You can input these into a BC program to get an idea of numbers. But, you’ll be around 1000 for both fps and ft/lb to 500yds.

 

[ppg1949]

ph, you can watch some long range sidelock shooting on youtube by Idaho Lewis. He is a member of this forum and has done a lot of heavy bullet long range shooting and posted it on YT. 52Bore’s practical experience is what Idaho Lewis does on targets. Personally, I don’t see well enough to shoot beyond 100 yards and I will not put a scope on a sidelock but your question is interesting.

 

[user 48679]

While most formal target shooting in the mid-1800's was at 40 rods (220yds), British shooters using Rigby muzzleloaders with conical boolits @ competitions were virtually equal in accuracy with American breechloaders of the time, shooting at 800, 900, and 1000 yards.
( per Ned Roberts, The Muzzleloading Cap Lock Rifle )

 

[powderhombre]

52 Bore, do you know what barrel twist is needed to stabilize that big bullet?

 

[52Bore]

52 Bore, do you know what barrel twist is needed to stabilize that big bullet?

Just like Whitworth’s 45 1:20 twist. the .451” bullet (52bore) will be in the 3 bore diameter range. (same as the BPCR that followed)
My original Rigby Match rifle I shoot today has a 1:18. Whereas my original Alex Henry, that I shot the buck with has a 1:24. To 500-600 yards, I can’t tell a difference in accuracy, they’ve both won many matches in years past. Just don’t shoot as much as I use to and it shows. lol
At 1000, the Rigby will out perform.

 

[powderhombre]

as with all things you never know until you try. My 50 cal 1:48 twist probably wouldn't stabilize an ounce of lead. it seems guys are having a better bit of success with 45 cal over the 50 cal even with the same weight bullet.

 

[powderhombre]

That 600 yard video is interesting. I wouldn't expect a 180 grain round ball to go that far as accurately as it did. He showed the staff setting at 100 yards but not what he had it at for the 600 yard shot.

 

[Zonie]

For what it's worth, this is a Schutzen rifle I built using parts from Pecatonica River Long Rifle.

It's barrel is a .40 caliber with a 1:18 twist using very shallow rifling grooves made for use with paper patched bullets.

Schutzen matches were held in the day using iron sights. The matches were shot at 200 yards from a standing position. It was legal to lock the supporting arm against the shooters body so the guns usually have a removable hand knob that screws into the stock ahead of the trigger guard at the point of balance.

The bullets I shoot are 300 and 400 grain, .395 diameter without grease grooves made for paper patching. The base of the bullet is cupped to allow the paper to be folded into it. The .395 diameter allows me to use paper that is .0013 thick to wrap the bullets. The paper is wrapped around the bullet twice giving the final wrapped bullet a finished diameter of .4002. Greased right before loading a bullet, the bullet almost exactly matches the bore size but it does not fill the rifling grooves. When it is fired, the acceleration bumps the bullets size up to grab the rifling.

 

[ppg1949]

Zone, how did your bullets shoot at that distance? And did you try any longer ranges?

 

[Boston Bill]

Those are awesome paper cartridges! I am so jealous.

 

[Art Caputo]

Its mostly about ballistic coefficient. A round ball looses velocity really fast. A faster twist is required to stabilize a longer bullet.

This! The BC of a +500gr cast bullet in .45 cal used for BPCR runs in the .350 range compared to less the .10 for a LRB....more then 300%! Use a twist rate that stabilizes this bullet, the sophisticated vernier/globe sights, and the added rifle weight, the “accurate” range is increased to +500 yards..