MVTC or Loyalist Arms ?

[grampaJ]

At range yasterday, a preference was offered by a friend that he liked LA over MVTC. I'm not familiar enough to offer anything one way or the other. So I thought I'd run it up the flagpole and see what salutes it gets. What's been your experiences? :hatsoff: GrampaJ in NC

 

[Ranger1759]

Check out the topic Best Bess in this forum...that will explain a lot...

 

[Rock Island]

MVTco is in the US, and not far from me, I have two of their muskets, and enjoy them both, neither has had any issues. LA has some nice things also, I know one guy who loves the Long Land they sold him, he considers it more correct to the period he reenacts. I have two more MVTCo muskets coming my way, Pete is a great guy to deal with, very helpfull when I sent him a list of questions about a few of their products. I have no idea how close to originals these guns are, I don't do living history, I like to hit the range and blow big holes in stuff. For me the guns need to work, and these guns do, the frizzens are hardened, mine sparks every time, had one on the range all afternoon yesterday. They have screwed in breech plugs, the barrels are good quality steel, the touch holes properly drilled. I have read about too strong spring issues, but have not had this happen with mine, Pete will fix it if it happens to a MVTCo gun. Don't expect the machine made perfection of a Pedersoli gun here, or anything like a high priced custom gun, these are basic shooters, or something the living history guys can re do to look more original. Both of mine are capable of keeping the rounds on a 1.5' x 1.5' target at 100 yards with a tight ball, and thin patch, a lot better than I was expecting from a smoothbore. The barrels are a slightly tapered tube, not just some straight piece of pipe. Have a care, not all Indian made guns are made alike, MVTco, and LA made guns are of good quality for the money, and both companys stand behind what they sell, I can't speak for others.

 

[david stone]

It really depends on which musket - and to a lesser extent, your "luck of the draw" on what you get. Loyalists 1728 French musket looks better than the MVTCo one. MVTCos short model Bess is better than the Loyalist one. Loyalist has a better looking Queen Anne period doglock...and so on. Neither of them make a good India pattern bess, but the lock markings on the MVTCo are better - all the India pattern (3rd model)muskets are too thin in the stock. So it really depends. I don't own an MVTCO musket, but I have tinkered on them, and I do like how they back up your product.

 

[123.DieselBenz]

RI,

Do you really mean one and half feet (18 inches) or 1.5" (inches) at 100 yards?

 

[Rock Island]

I can shoot a 1.5" group at 100 yards all day with several of my US M1903's or Finnish M39's no problem, but with a smoothbore musket it's an 18" group, the target looks like I shotgunned it with grapeshot. A little hard to get used to groups like that, but I am still not used to shooting a gun with no proper sights on it. If it wasn't for my practice with the Pedersoli 1816 Harpers Ferry, and the Long Land Bess the groups would be 30-40 inches. I just cut up cardboard boxes into one and a half foot by one and a half foot squares paint a large blue dot in the middle and have at it. With the carbine I was using the rear tang screw as an imaginary rear sight, lining it up with the front bayonet lug and the target. Seemed to work well enough to keep me on the target. With practice I should be able to tighten up the shot groups to something less embarrassing.

 

[bingo1952]

It's a smoothbore; It ain't gonna get much better than that at 100 yards. 50yards or less they are not too bad if you regualary practice. They are more akin to shooting a bare bow instinctively than a compound with sights. Used within their effective range they are quite deadly but a long range proposition they're not.

 

[paulvallandigham]

May I suggest you discipline your mind to stop LOOKING at the ENTIRE Bayonet lug, and instead, imagine a line down the middle of that lug, and let that line be your front sight. That should reduce the windage( width) of your groups substantially.

If you take some White out, or " Liquid paper', and put a white dot, or line on the back of the barrel, your eye will use that as a centering reference. If that works for you, you can invest in a small bottle of white enamel paint at a hobby store, and replace the white-out, with the painted, line or dot instead.

The only thing left for you to learn to do is to mount the stock to the same place on your jaw/face each time. Some shooter put a tack in the comb of the stock, as a reference mark for this purpose. Considering how sensitive the skin of the cheek is on most everyone, I think a piece of tape, or anything that is dissimilar to the finish of the wood stock will be "Felt" by your cheek and let you know if you have mounted the stock to your face consistently.

Mounting the stock takes practice to do it right. My problems shooting a shotgun accurately were only solved when my late friend, Jim Gabbard, had me practice pushing the gun out away from my shoulder, and then bringing the stock back so that my eye was looking down the barrel at the front sight, before the stock touched the pocket of my shoulder.( elbow out Straight from your shoulder to create the pocket. Leave the elbow "up" while you shoot the gun. It keeps you from canting the barrel, and helps you shoot with your head Up and on the Side of the stock, not the top of it, where recoil is going to smack your cheek, and bump your glasses so that the nosepiece bruises your nose. Lousy way to develop a flinch. I speak from personal experience. :shocked2: )

I know this sounds a bit much, but I saw my personal performance with my shotgun streaked upward after doing this exercise at home 50 times a day for a month, facing a mirror with an aiming point marked on it. I went from breaking 16-19 clays at 16 yd trap, to breaking 23-25 targets per round( 25) in a few short months. As I gained confidence, those scores went up to 24-25, and I began shooting the handicap events, to increase my yardage to challenge my skills further.


So. take the time to set that gun up right so you can control the sight picture. I know at least one member here reports filing a small narrow "sight" out of the top of the bayonet lug on his gun, so that he had a narrower sight to look at when shooting the gun. The Bayonet still fit fine over the lug, and locked securely to the barrel with the socket. That worked for him. Be inventive. Its your gun. :hatsoff:

 

[Muskeg Stomper]

Paul,

Your post is a good one. I've always made the mistake of wanting to ride up over the stock like I did shooting modern combat rifles (till the tip of my nose just touched the charging handle of my M4/M16). When I find myself doing that on my smoothbore musket, my cheek has a way of telling me that it was bad form! The technique that you mentioned of pushing the gun away and then drawing it back looks to be a real winner.

 

[Rock Island]

Thank you for the tips, I am going to try that with the white out next time I head out to the range. The front sight on the Bess reminds me of the one on the 1916 French Berthier carbine, it's a similar chunk of metal sitting on the end of the barrel, and I have similar problems with it. Next range trip that one is going to grow a white stripe down the middle of the sight also. I have the gun in the shoulder pocket and it's not battering me, I learned the importance of a proper hold a long time back, getting smacked in the face by your own weapon is no fun at all. I will practice the aiming trick. By the end of my shooting session the rounds had closed up a bit until they were on the inner face of the target rather than around the edges, still separated by 4-5 inches or more, but at least within shouting distance of each other. I have to admit that the first time I shot the Long Land I expected similar accuracy to something I saw on one of the NRA gun programs were a gentleman shooting a 1816 Harpers Ferry couldn't keep his rounds on the same end of a sheet of plywood. I own the 1816 now and I know it shoots a lot better than that if properly loaded, primed, and aimed, but I had no idea about that the first time I shot the smoothbore. I was amazed to see holes opening up on the target ( a lot smaller than a sheet of plywood) shot after shot.
Pete from MVTco warned me about keeping my eyes open when pulling the trigger, seems some folks are afraid the pan flash will get them in the eye ( that's what glasses are for, or so I thought) It never occurred to me to close my eyes when firing, not much point aiming if you do that, and I never saw any of the candy *** Hollywood actors squeezing their eyes shut while pulling the trigger in the movies.
I have been toying with the idea of gluing a simple rear sight to the barrel to see how that would work, I have some .22 rifle rear sights, and one from an old Krag around I could play with. I like to try to master the weapon with the same tools provided while it was issued before I get creative, I will try the paint first. I have been informed that the 1740 Potzdam is in stock and will ship before the end of the week, but my pistol is backordered for a month. Not a problem as I have several others to play with, I have been getting pretty good with the Pedersoli 1807 Harpers Ferry, but it's got a rifled bore while one original I examined closely several years back had a smooth bore, so accuracy with the Pedersoli would be expected.
Thanks again for the shooting tips, I will work on it.

 

[Mike Brooks]

All my smooth bores I have owned shoot far better groups than that. Of course they were originals or built by me, not some hacker sitting on a dirt floor with a file in India. :wink:
(I sit on carpet with a file... :haha: )

 

[Rock Island]

I don't blame the gun Mike, any shooting problems are all me, it's been years since I was shooting these weapons regularly, and back then they were CVA rifles, and pistols with sights and rifled bores, a lot easier. If I shot groups like that with my modern bolt rifles or autos, or even the single shot 45/70's I would go nuts. I have 975 .735 musket balls in stock now, that should give me some range time to improve.

 

[Mike Brooks]

I don't blame the gun Mike, any shooting problems are all me, it's been years since I was shooting these weapons regularly, and back then they were CVA rifles, and pistols with sights and rifled bores, a lot easier. If I shot groups like that with my modern bolt rifles or autos, or even the single shot 45/70's I would go nuts. I have 975 .735 musket balls in stock now, that should give me some range time to improve.

Trust me , it ain't you. Those things aren't built well enough to shoot better at that distance, especially with a stubby barrel. The large bore and military lock aren't made for precision shooting at that distance either. I had an original 3rd pattern bess that would shoot well at that distance, but it was far better built than the current Indian guns.
I'd recommend glass bedding the breech of that gun, the Indian guns I have seen are incredibly poorly bedded in the breech area. Ain't know way they're going to shoot well with a poorly bedded barrel.

 

[John Buscher]

Does anybody know anything about exactly how the guns are made in India? (Besides the dirt floor.)
According to Loyalist and TOW the lock parts are forgings made by the same methods as the originals.

It would be very interesting to see pictures of how this is being done.
John

 

[paulvallandigham]

(I sit on carpet with a file... )

Now, That's Funny, MIKE! Thanks for the laugh.

:grin: :thumbsup:

 

[Mike Brooks]

Does anybody know anything about exactly how the guns are made in India? (Besides the dirt floor.)
According to Loyalist and TOW the lock parts are forgings made by the same methods as the originals.

It would be very interesting to see pictures of how this is being done.
John

They look to me like they are made from forgings just like the originals were. Too bad they don't go the extra step to make an accurate reproduction.

 

[Rock Island]

I am betting there is a factory, they supply the movie industry with hundreds of these same models plus at least three online sellers that I found so far, and there seem to be hundreds of them in circulation. Some stuff must be done by hand, but that would slow down production, or maybe it's just made to look like it was hand done. Be nice to see a video of how they make them.

 

[poordevil]

It appears that there is a market for an affordible smooth bore gun out there. Maybe some of the US makers could offer an econemy model, folks would not have to go to India (or Italy). The Indian guns are about $600.00 now. How about a $700.00 finished gun Mr. Brooks? Nothing fancy, just plane wood and no carving.

 

[Darkgael]

The last plain wood, no carving gun that I bought was a fowler. Even that "poor boy" was $900. I felt then, and still, that that was a good deal. Asking a craftsman in this country for even cheaper is asking for a lot.
That's what mass production is all about.
Pete

 

[Pigman]

The Pedersoli trade gun kit is around that.

Foster From Flint