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MVTC or Loyalist Arms ?

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How about a $700.00 finished gun Mr. Brooks? Nothing fancy, just plane wood and no carving.
:shocked2: Cripes man! I pay more for that for parts to build one of my trade guns! Barrels cost $300 Locks another $135 a set of rough brass castings are $50 a blank piece of walnut goes for $100 before it's shipped to me, let alone the labor to turn it that blank into a gun. That leaves me $115 labor cost to build the gun. Figure about 30 hours to build it, that's $3.83 per hour. I'll go work at McDonalds before I build a gun for $700. :shake:
I'm not in this to qualify for food stamps, nor am I in this to build a cheap crappy gun to compete with 3rd world labor.
 
poordevil said:
It appears that there is a market for an affordable smooth bore gun out there. Maybe some of the US makers could offer an econemy model, folks would not have to go to India (or Italy). The Indian guns are about $600.00 now. How about a $700.00 finished gun Mr. Brooks? Nothing fancy, just plane wood and no carving.



$700? Good, well made (safe) period correct parts will cost at least that much. That's lock, stock and barrel and furniture. Can't ask anyone to work for free or pay you for the honor.... :idunno:
 
And as always comparatively they get what they pay for, it is just important that they know what the differece is going in to make an informed choice.
 
True Mike,but hopefully forums like this and advise from folks like you can be of help.
 
tg said:
True Mike,but hopefully forums like this and advise from folks like you can be of help.
Those people who like Indian guns generally don't like my advice! :haha:
 
poordevil said:
It appears that there is a market for an affordible smooth bore gun out there. Maybe some of the US makers could offer an econemy model, folks would not have to go to India (or Italy).

I thought that's what TVM,Jackie Brown, & ERA types have been doing for years. :confused:
 
Yeah, they start with better parts but they end up looking like they were made in India. HA! HA!
Mike I sit in the dirt under a Palm tree with a worn out file.I think Capt. Jas wife makes him work in the out house!!!!!
 
Does anybody know anything about exactly how the guns are made in India? (Besides the dirt floor.)

No but I can tell you who I believe makes MVTC and Loyalist guns.

Link
Edit: Link only seems to work intermittantly. Try a search for Hassanand Hemandas & Co
 
Rajasthan, interesting, I know some local Indians who visit home sometimes, but I don't think they come from there. I will have to ask if they can look in on the factory when they are home next. Seems they are also in the armor and swords business, people speak well of their products, must be the boys doing all the medieval reenacting.
I been shooting since I could walk, owned my first dozen guns before I was out of the 8th grade, and have been a military surplus arms collector all my life. I know quality when I feel it, heft it, and shoot it, and I know quality costs. These Indian guns have their place, and they may not be the highest quality, but they are not manure either. These guns are not made to take the place of a fine, handcrafted weapon produced by a master gunsmith, they are mass produced so casual shooters like me can experience what it was like to shoot the big military muskets of the 18th century without busting the bank. I would not ask a master craftsman to produce me a $3000 masterpiece so I can shoot tin cans with it on the range every other weekend, and use it as a noisemaker on the 4th of July. I don't shoot in competitions, haven't got the eyes for it anymore, I don't do living history demonstrations, and I don't hunt with big bore military muskets, so these guns fit the bill. They are fun shooters, they work, and despite having been looking for some time I have yet to find a report of one having blown up in anybodies face were it was not a case of shooter error, poor loading, overloading and so on ( and none of these reports involved Indian guns) I don't expect these guns to be 100% correct, they are close, and just what is correct in the first place? Interchangeable parts didn't come along until the mid 19th century, The Brown Bess and every other 18 th century musket was produced by hand at government armorys and small shops over a 100 year period, the variations over that many years must have been endless. Even guns made at approximately the same time will have small variations from each other, made to the same pattern but not made identical.
If I had my way I would not be buying Indian reproductions, I would be buying shootable originals, it's a milsurp collector thing, but I have not been able to find any, and the ones I do find are huge money for guns that look too delicate to shoot, or decrepit. My oldest shootable original military surplus firearm is a converted 1853 Snider Enfield made in 1862, followed by a 1863 US Springfield. I would love to shoot a Bess that had been used during the American Revolution, but as that seems not likely to happen then dropping $600 for the Indian repops is all I can do. As to Indian VS Italian Vs Japanese Vs American pepops, they are all fakes, none of them carry the weight of history as does the real thing, and to a milsurp collector that makes them all less than worthless as anything but can bouncers, and noisemakers, just another modern firearm. They all have their irritating problems, soft frizzens, poorly designed touch hole passages, the problem with the lock geometry on the Pedersoli 1807 Harpers Ferry, but none of them are dangerous any more than any other gun if properly used. I remember some pretty crude looking manure CVA was importing back in the 70's, so things have come a long way since.
 
Well, do yourself a favor and find some originals you can actually put your hands on and study, it becomes real obvious in a hurry how far off the Indian guns are, cartoonish in fact.
Rifle Shoppe repros are out there for $1000 to $1500 if you are patient. They are available all the time for $2000 to $2500. I bought mine for $1000 from TOTW
bess1.jpg

bess2.jpg

bess4.jpg

bess9.jpg

bess10.jpg
 
I know they are off Mike, I have studied originals, a friend of mine had several nice ones he collected back in the 30's, and I know the Indians don't have it right. My friend passed on 15 years ago and his son keeps everything locked away in the safe, will not sell or let anybody play with them. The muskets, at least the Bess he has looks more like yours with a few extra layers of grime added from decades of wall display before they were put away. If I was involved in living history I would want your musket, for casual plinking the Indian guns get the job done. There is no substitute for the real thing, oh, and my friends didn't have any markings on it like your's, were the unit markings and score marks a common thing? I have WW2 era Finnish military rifles with similar score marks on them, but I have not handled enough original Brown Bess muskets to have seen this sort of thing on them. The original also looks like it has worm holes in it, or it could be the grain opening up, I wish I had a digital camera back then so I could have shot some pics of that collection. A guy on another forum I belong to found three original Rev War muskets off a wall someplace in Penn ( a Bess, and two Colonial copys), got them all for less than a grand and they look good enough to shoot, not that he is going to. Some people have all the luck.
 
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