My first muzzle loader - small problem though

[lighthorse]

Hi all,

I just signed up here on the forums and have a question about the Armi Sport .50 cal Hawken style percussion rifle I just acquired. It was manufactured in 1995 and apparently they no longer make it. I'm not even sure what they called the rifle nor can I find any exploded diagrams of it.

It would definitely be called a Hawken rifle or maybe a trader rifle although the way its assembled is slightly different than other brands I have researched.

I'm considering taking this to a gun smith as a I don't know enough to mess with it but I thought I would run the problem with it by the more knowledgeable people here on the forum.

The rifle has a back strap with two bolts. One bolt runs through the stock down to the trigger guard. Tightening this bolt tightens down the back strap to the stock and tightens up the trigger guard. When I tighten the bolt as it should be its is causing a problem internally with either the trigger or lock assembly in that the hammer will no longer stay in half-cock. backing off on the bolt to a certain point will allow the hammer to function properly but then the bolt is not snugged down and the trigger guard is slightly lowered below the wood . Seems to me this is a safety issue.

I tried to research this problem with no luck. Any ideas?

Thank you,
Jim

 

[rafterob]

A fairly common problem with the various factory produced rifles is inletting, and this most often is noticed in the trigger plate inlet. You have a couple of choices:First is to take it to a qualified muzzleloader gunsmith. Second would be to take it apart and examine how the parts function and fix it yourself. Possible fixes may be to shim out the trigger plate or file down the trigger bar. These things are quite simple, do not be afraid to take the components off of the rifle. You would want to be careful about taking the lock apart, but you should not have to do that anyway.

 

[Andyd]

I'm dealing with the same issues with my CVA Mountain Rifle. On my gun the trigger assy was inletted too deep. So when all screws were tight the gun would not function. As of last night I am glass bedding the trigger assy. (Epoxy). Or building up materal that was removed. Try slipping a pice of business card under your trigger plat/Assy the tighten down the screws.
Good luck

 

[bpd303]

Shimming the trigger plate is an acceptable fix. Another thing to consider is some think they have to put 50 lbs of torque on the tang screws and lock bolts. Over tightening is a common problem, all that needs to be done is to snug up the screws not "tighten" them. I use the two finger method, hold the turnscrew with only your thumb and index finger when snugging the screws.

 

[lighthorse]

OK... Thank you all for helping a newbie.

I realized this problem when attempting to remove the barrel from the stock. By watching a video on a Thompson center Hawken's it was just a matter of pulling the brass pin from the fore stock and lifting the barrel out. However when attempting it on the Armi Sport rifle I realized this one was different I also had to remove those two bolts in the back strap. I changed my mind and decided not to remove the barrel until I had more info. I realized the bolts were loose though so snugged up the front one and the hammer which was in half cock at the time snapped down and then the rifle would no longer stay in half cock until backing of on the bolt


Anyway...Shimming maybe the solution. I have a question though. When I remove the trigger guard I'm assuming the trigger assembly will remain in the rifle? I ask because I don't want to pull the trigger out and have pieces fall out as I do it. Had that sort of thing happen in different situations in the past.

If the trigger does need to be removed should the hammer remain down, half cocked or cocked I ask because I lack the understanding of how the trigger ties in to the lock plate mechanism.

Really appreciated your comments and nice to be on this forum.

Jim

 

[Rifleman1776]

Don't be afraid to disassemble yourself. The lock assembly is a simple thing and will come out in one piece, not pieces.
It will all be a learning process and, for you, the "pieces" will fall in place.
As suggested, do not over torque the bolt. I believe a thin shim will fix things for you.
Really, to be a muzzle loader, you need to learn basic dissassembly for cleaning and minor repairs. Your journey has begun.

 

[cynthialee]

Don't be afraid to disassemble yourself. The lock assembly is a simple thing and will come out in one piece, not pieces.
It will all be a learning process and, for you, the "pieces" will fall in place.
As suggested, do not over torque the bolt. I believe a thin shim will fix things for you.
Really, to be a muzzle loader, you need to learn basic dissassembly for cleaning and minor repairs. Your journey has begun.

I thought that highlighted part should be repeated.
:thumbsup:

 

[necchi]

The trouble is what survivor45 is saying.
The inlet under the trigger plate is too deep,
not the trigger guard.
The trigger guard is supposed to press snugly against the trigger plate, in this case there isn't enough under the trigger plate itself, and the TG is pressing the trigger plate into a part of the lock called the sear arm.
Easy fix, experiment with shimming under the front of the trigger plate. When you find out how much it takes use epoxy or other shim to make it a permanent fix

 

[gunmaker43]

Mite not hurt to get a book or 3 on ML basic's--even a good rifle building one like "the gunsmith of grenville co." (40.00) ALL will be revealed....good shooting friend & welcome to THE place.....Tom

 

[bpd303]

Here is a diagram of parts for a Hawken rifle. Although it shows a hooked breech it does show the relationship of parts. These guns are not complicated and fairly easy to work on. https://www.traditionsfirearms.com/data/product_schematics/Hawken Rifles_1365523276.pdf

 

Perhaps a thin piece of steel, brass, or wood between the triggerguard spur and the stock may help get it snug without undue pressure on the lock. Take care of the lock that nothing is out of order with that. The halfcock is a safety and it needs to be in working order. An ordinary gun wont go off when the safety is somehow disabled. But your gun might slip off half cock or even full cock when you dont want it to.

 

[lighthorse]

Hey,

Thanks for all the input and info. I will get started in fixing the problem. I ask all these questions as I tend to jump into things because I think I can fix stuff before having any information. I have on occasion put myself in a bind. Maybe I'm getting old... I rather hate putting myself in a bind now.

One of the things I told myself I would do when I made the switch from C&R rifles to black powder is that I would not assume that because I can field strip a Garand that automatically qualifies me in 19th century type long arms.

I'll make an update later on.

Best regards,
Jim

 

[lighthorse]

Well... I'm rather embarrassed for my being so overly cautious. I pulled the trigger assembly and it consisted of three parts including the trigger guard. I was amazed how simple it is. I cut some wood shims and put them in place, reassembled and snugged up the screws and bolt. Everything is as it should be and half cock works fine. Took me about 15 minutes

Although I did not removed the lock assembly I could see how the trigger activates the hammer. very simple.

I'm not a gun smith but I have fiddled with 20th century firearms for years, at times getting myself into disassembly problems for being impatient, young and stupid. Even though this Hawken's is not a high end muzzle loader I'm rather fond of this new rifle and just didn't want to mess it up.

Now that the problem is taken care of I'm going to be looking into the, balls, caps, patches, powder and other accessories. I found a local place that is an outfitter for 19th century old west, cowboy stuff including firearms and I'll see if that includes black powder items as well or they at least can steer me somewhere that caters to muzzle loaders.

Thanks for helping out a newbie

 

[lighthorse]

Mite not hurt to get a book or 3 on ML basic's--even a good rifle building one like "the gunsmith of grenville co." (40.00) ALL will be revealed....good shooting friend & welcome to THE place.....Tom

Thank you for this info. I will look into it.

 

[lighthorse]

Here is a diagram of parts for a Hawken rifle. Although it shows a hooked breech it does show the relationship of parts. These guns are not complicated and fairly easy to work on. https://www.traditionsfirearms.com/data/product_schematics/Hawken Rifles_1365523276.pdf[/quote]

Greatly appreciate the diagram. Thank you.

 

[Andyd]

Happy to hear you were able to solve the problem with out taking the gun to a gunsmith. Now you can spend that money on lead!

 

[Leatherbark]

Good show

By the way that thing your calling a "backstrap" is what we call a "Tang". But I sort of like "Backstrap" but its early and I am hungry

Bob

 

[bpd303]

Believe me if you can field strip an M1 Garand and re-assemble it, you will have no problem with just about anything that needs doing on a muzzleloader. :thumbsup:

 

[lighthorse]

Good show

By the way that thing your calling a "backstrap" is what we call a "Tang". But I sort of like "Backstrap" but its early and I am hungry

Bob

Oh, yes I was wondering about my terminology. Coming from a history of bolt action rifles tangs are short, thick stubby and almost non existent. On the Hawken rifle the tang being long, slender and quite thin, struck me as more akin to a revolver back strap. I noticed that some brands don't even have a tang per se.

Believe me if you can field strip an M1 Garand and re-assemble it, you will have no problem with just about anything that needs doing on a muzzleloader.

I'm beginning to understand this. When I removed the trigger I was like Oh man... I got worked up over this? I'm such a shmuck. Yet I don't want have the attitude that because I'm a gun guy I don't need anyone's help. It's always been just a hobby for me so I don't feel I'm some master shooter/collector guy. Muzzle loaders are completely new to me and I wish to be a student, asking questions even if those questions might seem dumb.

Jim

 

[Rifleman1776]

I did not remove the lock assembly

You really should. That is a basic step in cleaning your rifle.
Standard way is to back out the screws on the opposite side that hold it just a few turns then, with wood or other non-maring material, tap the screw heads. That will push the lock out slightly to where you can grab it and remove. Do clean well and lube after a shooting session.