My Grandfathers old Smoothbore, what is it?

Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

bluesman

32 Cal.
Joined
Oct 27, 2012
Messages
17
Reaction score
0
Now that I have been shooting black powder for a month or two, the idea hit me to look at the old rifle that has been handing on the wall for years. It was my grand fathers.

Yes I checked it, and yes it appears to be loaded!

I would appreciate it if you folks could shed some light on exactly what I have?

Link
 
You have what appears to be a restocked percussion conversion of a US M1795 musket, Type 2, restocked (or heavily re-worked) to a fowler. What is the barrel length and can you show a detailed photo of the front of the trigger guard? The lock, butt plate and barrel (shortened?) all appear to be from the original musket and the stock may be as well.
 
Va.Manuf.06 said:
You have what appears to be a restocked percussion conversion of a US M1795 musket, Type 2, restocked (or heavily re-worked) to a fowler. What is the barrel length and can you show a detailed photo of the front of the trigger guard? The lock, butt plate and barrel (shortened?) all appear to be from the original musket and the stock may be as well.

I think you're probably right here. I thought at first that it might have been one of those 1808 pattern muskets but the markings indicate model 1795 Springfield Part II {Flayderman PP.538-539} although the Springfield mark is somewhat battered.It's hard to tell as to whether the original stock was used and pinned.At any rate it's a fairly common utilization of earlier parts for civilian or militia use.I have long been fond of these old composite guns and it is always a pleasure to see them in very good as used condition.
As always I welcome responsible opposing comment :v :bow:
Tom Patton
 
It looks like a nail has been driven into the nipple rather than being capped.
 
Okwaho said:
Va.Manuf.06 said:
You have what appears to be a restocked percussion conversion of a US M1795 musket, Type 2, restocked (or heavily re-worked) to a fowler. What is the barrel length and can you show a detailed photo of the front of the trigger guard? The lock, butt plate and barrel (shortened?) all appear to be from the original musket and the stock may be as well.

I think you're probably right here. I thought at first that it might have been one of those 1808 pattern muskets but the markings indicate model 1795 Springfield Part II {Flayderman PP.538-539} although the Springfield mark is somewhat battered.It's hard to tell as to whether the original stock was used and pinned.At any rate it's a fairly common utilization of earlier parts for civilian or militia use.I have long been fond of these old composite guns and it is always a pleasure to see them in very good as used condition.
As always I welcome responsible opposing comment :v :bow:
Tom Patton


Tom, after further thought I am going to modify what I said earlier by saying that the stock is probably not the M1795's original stock - as far as I can see there are no band spring inlets showing on the forearm.

Bluesman, while the photos are very helpful (you showed most of what we needed to see) the lighting is a little rough and we can't see detail as well as we would like. I will say this about the stock as it stands now, if the gun was restocked, it was done by someone who knew what they were doing, probably a professional gun stocker with experience in the trade. While it is not monetarily as valuable as it would be if in its original configuration, I agree with Tom's statement above and I like this gun, I hope that you preserve just as it is for others to appreciate.
 
Lucky you,you have one of the rarest Springfields ever made.Its a M1807 Springfiled Indian Carbine,its the only fedraly made indian trade/treaty friearam ever made.Total production,1,202 between 1808-1810.33" barrel 54cal smoothbore.Brass mounted,lock 5 3/4" it should have a iron worm on the end of the ramrod if its still the origenel ramer.The rest looks great ,got to go for now il get back later with more details outstanding find.GS
 
Last edited by a moderator:
:shocked2: By golly, you may be right Gulielmus Smith.

:doh:

But we'll need to hear more from Bluesman about his barrel length and the triggerguard. If it is indeed a M1807 Springfiled Indian Carbine, it slipped by me very slyly.
 
Barrel is 33 1/2" measured externally muzzle to breach. I can't measure internally till I extract the lead. I have uploaded many more pictures and added them to the others.

It appears a nail in in the nipple.

Should the cock/hammer have the opening in the area that contacts the cap?

I can't easily remove the rod because the front guide is dented, so I haven't forced it.

I can't wait to hear what you guys think....

Photos link
 
The specifications I have list the barrel as 33 3/4 inches but that's kind of relative given the state of the manufacturers art at the time.Even regulation muskets show small variances.

Don't look as if they gave a lot of them away.1202 were manufactured between 1808-10.There were 950 still in store in 1830 and 690 in 1848.About 260 were altered as cadet musketoons for the USMA
 
I see some more good posts, but here's the more detail info I promised. In 1807, Springfield armory was given orders to make 1000 small muskets for the Department of Indian Affairs. In all 1,202 were completed between 1808-1810. Very few were ever issued out to Indians. In 1814, an unknown number of these were sent to West Point for cadet use. They were fit with sling swivels. In 1830, then again in 1832, more were sent to West Point totalling 321. These, too, were fitted with swivels and also fitted with bayonets. The first 2 1/2" of the stock was cut off for the bayonets to fit. Some of these were sold to the state of South Carolina that same year. The remaining lots still in storage were condemned(obsolete) and sold at public aution some time between 1848-1850. This is the point where they entered civilian use. These would have still been in their original flintlock configuration. Yours appears to be one of these with the exception of the percussion alteration. Original specs, bear in mind these are hand made, there will be slight variations. Overall lenth: 48 1/2", barrel: 33-33 1/2", cal: .530-.540, smoothbore. Round tapered barrel brass front sight only, marked as yours is, finish browned, tang 2 3/8", lock 5 9/16"-5 3/4" originally as flint, case hardened, heat blued screws inside of lock stamped with lock filers name. Stock -walnut original finish unkown. Furniture: cast brass. Trigger guard should measure out at 8 1/2" apx. and is held by pins. Ramrod: hickory with horn tip and permanently attached iron worm or ball puller. This is a rare and historical piece. If I could recommend, leave it as is. As for the load in the barrel, there are several options, we'll save them for another post. Thanks for sharing this wonderfull relic. It brightened up a cold Monday. GS
Referances: US Military Firearms by Major James E.Hicks, American Military Shoulder Armsby by George D.Moller, United States Martial Flintlocks by Robert M. Reilly
 
Thank you all. I did some googling myself and this rifle clearly appears to be a M1807 Springfiled Indian Carbine. Back it goes on the mantle,darn, I wanted to shoot ot!

Now to start a thread about the best way to unload it.
 
The temptation is always there but glad you checked first. It is a very valuable piece (expensive and a desirable collector's piece, even in percussion) and you are wise to leave it alone. Sounds like your grandfather had good taste and you inherited a good piece. I am sad to say I have never seen one.
 
Very cool stuff. I really enjoy learning about the history of various firearms.

Jeff
 
I noted that the last set of pics of the gun are no longer shown and wonder if they can be reposted. I an particularly interested in the butt and wrist from the lock back and the top of the wrist between the barrel tang and comb and need more definition on these areas especially the butt architecture and wrist on both sides.
Thanks :bow:
Tom Patton
 
Bluesman, thanks for putting the photos back up. Is the entire trigger guard brass or is the rear strap - the part after the break - a replacement made of iron?
 
Back
Top