My little tip of the hat to "The Revenant"

[S.Kenton]

This isn't aimed any one person, butI like the canteen and I also enjoyed the movie as well. I think that as long as the movie creates positive interest in our sport then it's all good.....one other thing to the HC/PC police, I say this...when you started out in this venture, were you worried so much about being correct in everything you did? I say get the interest flowing first and foremost, I've noticed some of the more sterner attitudes, particularly on this site, seem to push many new comers away...

 

[Grenadier1758]

It looks PC to me.

LOOKS and IS are two entirely different things...

Can the Kidney canteen be documented for the Fur Trade period or is it a Hollywood-ism? I strongly suspect the latter in this case (F&I era canteen).

they used kidney canteens up to the twentieth century,can still be found surplus

The kidney canteen in tin plated iron was used by the British Regulars from shortly before the 7 Years War and the shape was used by the British Army up until after WW2. During the 7YW (F&I), the tin plated canteens were often covered in red wool with loops for cord for carry. I carry the wool wrapped kidney shaped canteen.

Colonial troops seldom carried canteens. This was due mainly to availability of clean water from frequent stream crossings.

Copper with tin lining is not one of the common versions of the kidney shaped canteen.

One common observation from period accounts of Mountain Men is that they did not carry canteens. Since they were trapping beaver, they were literally surrounded by water most of the time. There was just no need in their mind to carry water when all they had to do was bend over to get a drink. Yeah, they didn't know about the bugs in the water so they drank directly from the streams and they were never far from a stream.

So, yes, the kidney shaped canteen in "The Revenant" is a Hollywood fabrication.

 

[tenngun]

I think your right, we are never going to be 100%. We don’t live then we live now and you have to bend a bit, I carry similar canteens even doing early ozark. We do the best we can with what we got and being this is this time and this place.

 

[George]

Colonial troops seldom carried canteens. This was due mainly to availability of clean water from frequent stream crossings.

That's not my impression.

The Pennsylvania Packet
January 4, 1777
.... DESERTED from Capt. Alexander Lawson Smith Company in the rifle battalion commanded by Col. Rawlings, .”¦Riley and Fitzpatrick deserted together Dec. 17, and took with them their knapsacks, blankets, canteens and rifles.

journal of Arthur Harris of Bridgewater coy of militia, requirements for Mass. militia in 1775: “Each soldier to provide himself with/.. A Canteen or Wood Bottle to hold 1 Quart."

The Pennsylvania Packet
August 20, 1778
For the PENNSYLVANIA PACKET. To the MEETING for SUFFERINGS for Pennsylvania and New Jersey, on behalf of the society of people called Quakers. "While the British army was in this city, a soldier belonging to it, going past my house, saw some hickory wood which I had just bought, and took a log of it; I asked him what he was going to do with that log? He then put it down, and asked me if he might have it? to which I consented, but upon my asking him for what purposes he wanted it? He replied, that it looked as if it would split well, and would make good hoops for canteens; upon which I told him, when I consented that thee should have it, I supposed thee wanted it for fuel, or some other of the ordinary purposes of life, but as it has come to my knowledge that thee wants it to make warlike instruments with, thee must not have it upon any account with my consent, and he got it not."

THE VIRGINIA GAZETTE
May 6, 1775
WILLIAMSBURG
A FEW nights ago some people privately entered the public magazine in this city and took a great number of guns, cartouch boxes, swords, canteens, &c. for which his Excellency the Governor has ordered a diligent search to be made”¦”¦

THE VIRGINIA GAZETTE 3
August 25, 1775
WHEREAS it is found necessary, in the present time of danger, that a number of forces should be immediately raised”¦ Be it therefore ordained, ..., that the soldiers to be enlisted shall, at the expense of the publick, be furnished each with one good musket and bayonet, cartouch box, or pouch, and canteen;

THE VIRGINIA GAZETTE 2
October 5, 1775
WANTED IMMEDIATELY
FOR the army, camp Kettles, either tin or brass”¦...Canteens are also much wanted; and it is requested of the respective committees to make immediate enquiry after those taken from the magazine, and contrive them to the head quarters, not omitting those that are damaged, which may be repaired.

THE VIRGINIA GAZETTE 3
September 12, 1777
WANTED immediately, four or five hands acquainted with working up TIN SHEET into kettles and canteens , to whom generous wages will be given, by applying to the subscriber in Williamsburg.

Spence

 

[Grenadier1758]

True, Spence, there were the canteens in storage for the troops. Still canteen use among civilians was rare.

But, the mountain men disdained canteens for the most part unless they contained whisky and they only had whisky at rendezvous.

 

[tenngun]

Meek told a story about crossing south pass and only having a kettle full of whiskey. He found a preacher and his wife but the preacher lost and dying of thirst ,refused a drink of the whisky, Meek carried the woman to water, but left the preacher, later the preacher got his second wind and staggered through the pass.
Smith’s party ran out of water on his return from California, one of his party stayed behind to die while the rest struggled on. They found water and Smith filled a kettle to return to the boy they left behind. He drank dry the kettle and then went on with Smith.
While they were trappers there are plenty of dry spots tween the creeks. You would have thought they would have had water skins or canvas bags, but they are absent in records, although well attested to by the start of the Oregon trail.
Of course Smith himself would meet his death while scouting for water in the Cimmoron.

 

[Nativearizonan]

Here is a canteen dug from an archeological site. There is strong evidence it had belonged, originally, to the Zebulon Pike Expedition; as this site is where Pike encamped with the Pawnee and reported 5 canteens were stolen in 1806:

http://www.hotdiptin.com/blog/corps
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pike-Pawnee_Village_Site

Going by this find, I would say the kidney canteen is quite suitable for early fur trade use.

 

[jdw276]

Here in ga, the reverant is on fx, started 5.30 est.

First time I have seen it on tv.

 

[Redstick Lee]

to all:

the canteen was supposedly Hughs Sons, "Hawks"
(who there's no record ever existed)
Hawk being half Native would most likely have NOT had the most up to date, en' vogue, items, but old disguarded equipment he'd picked up along the way......
Most likely wouldn't have been a paid member of any trapping party either.

Let the flaming and flogging begin:

 

[coloradoclyde]

In case anyone forgot.....The movie was loosely based on a true story....But, it is still 100% pure fiction.

It wasn't meant to be a documentary. It was intended to be entertaining.....

The movie Jeramiah Johnson was full of inaccuracies too.... All movies have lots of inaccuracies..... But, they are fun to watch....

 

[Redstick Lee]

actually there IS a historical account of Hugh Glass' being mauled by a Grizzly, left for dead, and making it back.......but it was all to retrieve his expensive long gun, not avenge any Son he never had.
Jim Bridger told the story to many and it changed only in minor ways each time........
Poor Hugh......couldn't touch Fitzgerald because he'd signed on for a stint as a soldier, making him Gov't property......and only able to "sternly lecture" young Bridger about his actions because of his age.
Didn't get his gun back either, it disappeared with Fitzgerald.

but, to quell any confusion, I REALLY like the canteen !......

 

[tenngun]

I think we need or at least it’s practicl today to carry a canteen and I carry kidneys and D shaped. However I would point out this is a military from a military expedition. That doesn’t tell us much about civilian trapping brigades.
There were a lot of dry areas so you would think water skins or water bags and canteens were in use, but we we just don’t see them recorded.
Is that a problem?
I don’t think people would spend a lot of time writing common stuff. There is no record of rag tinder being used in the mountain man time, but it is widely known at that time and used, we don’t have a lot of info available about a lot of stuff used or at least sold in the west. Chocolate, tea and raisins were sold but I never recall any of the journals and recollection talking about plumb duff, hot chocolate and high tea.

 

[Nativearizonan]

A lot of it has to do with a person's need, and who and what period they are attempting to portray. If you are an American RMFT trapper, and are doing some trekking on foot, which probably didn't really happen much except in emergency situations, you probably need to carry a canteen, so you go with the best thing you can find, which would probably be a canteen carried by a foot soldier.

A gourd or horn canteen, would also be within reason, as would a woven basket sealed with pine pitch, for Great Basin usage. A water bag (please not a bota-bag!) made from skin, stomach or other gut tissue, might be the most pc for such person, but has obvious sanitation issues as well as being hard to find. A wooden canteen or cask would be more fitting for someone with beasts of burden, as the extra weight would rule them out for someone on foot.

 

[smoothshooter]

It would seem to me like even if the experienced mountain men that had been around the mountains for a couple of years or so did not use canteens, some of the newbies would have, at least initially, and maybe traded them off later.
I haven't spent a lot of time in the western mountains, unfortunately, but I have been there some, and I have noticed that water IS NOT always available, and sometimes for quite a distance. Sometimes streams are many miles apart, especially if travelling across the high prairie from one range to another.
I suspect canteens or bladders of some sort were used more than can be documented at this late date, and may not have been visible to the casual or even more interested observer if they were packed away out of sight when not needed in a bedroll or on a pack animal beneath a bunch of other stuff.

Not having the means to carry at least some small amount water for yourself, or more importantly, your horse or mule, if needed, seems unnecessarily foolhardy to me.

 

[Black Hand]

It would seem to me like even if the experienced mountain men that had been around the mountains for a couple of years or so did not use canteens, some of the newbies would have, at least initially, and maybe traded them off later.
I haven't spent a lot of time in the western mountains, unfortunately, but I have been there some, and I have noticed that water IS NOT always available, and sometimes for quite a distance. Sometimes streams are many miles apart, especially if travelling across the high prairie from one range to another.
I suspect canteens or bladders of some sort were used more than can be documented at this late date, and may not have been visible to the casual or even more interested observer if they were packed away out of sight when not needed in a bedroll or on a pack animal beneath a bunch of other stuff.

Not having the means to carry at least some small amount water for yourself, or more importantly, your horse or mule, if needed, seems unnecessarily foolhardy to me.

There is what you believe and there is what they actually did. The former in no way changes the latter...

 

[Coot]

Not having the means to carry at least some small amount water for yourself, or more importantly, your horse or mule, if needed, seems unnecessarily foolhardy to me.

Well, we still have horses around today, and they tend to drink 5 to 10 gallons of water a day (depends on how hot it is & whether they are on grass or hay). A quart canteen can be a big deal to a man but is pretty much meaningless to a horse. When traveling by horse or with livestock, the trip needs to be planned from one water source to the next. A recent article in the Carriage Journal mentioned freight wagons in arid areas traveling in groups of four - three cargo & one water.

 

[smoothshooter]

Human nature doesn't change much from century to century.

Are you prepared to say that NO Rocky Mountain fur trapper or fur company employee, or explorer ever, EVER carried or used an item that had been commonly available for millenia, had such utility and was cheap and lightweight to boot?

I realize that the ignoring primary documentation, or the lack thereof, can be a slippery slope, but assuming some canteens were used in the above context is not a stretch.

 

[smoothshooter]

I am aware a horse's ability to drink lots of water, having owned a foxtrotter for several years, and riding her a lot in the summer months. Granted, to a horse, a quart, or a gallon of water isn't much, but even a small amount can make a really thirsty horse happier, just like a human.

 

[Black Hand]

Human nature doesn't change much from century to century.

Are you prepared to say that NO Rocky Mountain fur trapper or fur company employee, or explorer ever, EVER carried or used an item that had been commonly available for millenia, had such utility and was cheap and lightweight to boot?

I realize that the ignoring primary documentation, or the lack thereof, can be a slippery slope, but assuming some canteens were used in the above context is not a stretch.

There is always the possibility that something was used at some time, but that isn't the point of this exercise. As I've said many times, canteens are a necessity today since we can't drink from wild water-sources with impunity. However, be honest with yourself and others and acknowledge they can't really be supported with evidence when in the civilian context. Personally, I carry a canteen (jackware) and a water filter.

The primary point IS that basing one's gear upon what was seen in a Hollywood movie, and a poor movie at that, is a bad idea.

 

[Nativearizonan]

The primary point IS that basing one's gear upon what was seen in a Hollywood movie, and a poor movie at that, is a bad idea.

Unless of course that someone is trying to do a "Tip of the hat" to that movie, as the OP outwardly stated he was doing.